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Posted by gar on 12/22/2008, 6:34 am, in reply to "Rising and Falling: a continuation"
70.100.196.X
--Previous Message--
: --Previous Message by Steve--
: ...
: First, I witness it in myself and
: others--the bits that are not useful or
: productive rising and falling away in their
: own time.
: from:
: http://members.boardhost.com/Zentao00/msg/1229791696.html
:
: Hi Steve,
:
: Do you not witness things becoming habitual
: or people acquiring bad habits (that persist
: despite not being useful, or long after
: their usefulness has gone)?
: Bao Pu
: from:
: http://members.boardhost.com/Zentao00/msg/1229873727.html
:
: Steve: I'm not smart enough to know when
: habits are persisting beyond their time of
: usefulness. How could I know such a thing?
:
: -- It's true that it is not often easy to
: tell when something is no longer useful.
: Like this conversation, for example. But
: I've found that most of the time, with a
: little introspection, I can. I suspect the
: same is true for everyone.
:
: Steve: How can I know where the dividing
: line of useful and not useful is? What looks
: bad or ugly or not useful to me might, in
: fact, be quite useful in the scheme of
: things.
:
: -- Yes, that's also something to keep in
: mind. But again, it's not impossible. For
: example, damaging a relationship by verbal
: or physical abuse can be identified as not
: useful or productive if one really wants
: to continue to enjoy the relationship.
:
: Steve: I know when I'm unhappy though--and I
: know when others report being unhappy. Once
: unhappiness is recognized, the trajectory
: often changes. Sometimes for the better, but
: not always.
:
: -- I've noticed that too. But perhaps more
: often the trajectory doesn't change unless
: some effort is put into it. Perhaps a poor
: example: I've noticed that I procrastinate
: too much and things don't get done that I
: want done and that stuff piles up. I've
: recognized this, but the habit has not
: changed. I suspect that it will take some
: "self-cultivation" to correct
: this, but I am still procrastinating that
: too ;-)
:
: Steve: I cannot 'make' myself recognize
: unhappiness or un-usefulness in my life.
: Cultivation will not achieve that for me.
: Either the recognition happens, or it does
: not. Maybe cultivation works for others in
: that regard. I can't say. I suspect, though,
: that once you recognize the 'desirability'
: or usefulness of cultivation, you are
: already on a changed trajectory. U.G.
: Krishnamurti described the movement toward
: natural, uncontrived, living--if and when it
: occurs--as being 'acausal.' When it happens,
: it just happens. You cannot 'make' it
: happen. That sounds right to me.
:
: -- So you know when you're unhappy but can't
: 'make yourself recognize' it. Well, without
: going into defining 'happiness' and
: 'usefulness,' I'd say that yes, we can often
: know if we're unhappy or doing something not
: useful or productive. Sometimes it's
: obvious, sometimes it's an intuitive
: feeling. There have been times where I've
: known that something was bothering me, but I
: wasn't exactly sure what is was (until
: later).
:
: But I've also noticed there are things which
: are sources of unhappiness (and
: unhealthiness and disharmony) which are hard
: to detect unless one engages in some
: introspection (or perhaps meditation?). If
: one isn't inclined to look within, to engage
: in some introspection to achieve some
: self-knowledge, then they won't recognize
: these things. I suppose external
: circumstances might one day force someone to
: make that inward journey, or they may live
: in ignorance to the sources of their
: troubles till they die.
:
: So, in a way I'm saying that anyone can
: make something happen by opening the doors
: to allow himself or herself to see it, just
: as there are things we can do to prevent
: ourselves from seeing/recognizing the
: sources of unhappiness, poor health and
: disharmony. Ideally, we'd all be very
: self-aware, but in my experience, this is
: not the case. Not without some 'effort,' at
: least in the beginning.
:
: Good health,
: Bao Pu
:
Greetings Bao Pu,
This 'effort' that you alluded to, imo, is the behavior that emanates from a self generated desire.
If one finds him/herself in perfect harmony, no such desire would arise. If you aren't afflicted with doubt and sense disharmony, then there is no desire to do anything other than to accept, what is. Yes, No?
in peace,
gar
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"The Tao is basically utterly open. Utter openeness has no substance. It ends in endlessness, begins in beginninglessnes".
-Li Daoqun
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