Thank you for your post. This board is sponsored by Jeannine De Palma -FoxFire Farms Central Asians Shepherd dogs. Mrs. De Palma a rescue advocate for over 30 years. Has stepped on quite few toes in her time. Standing up for ethical breeding practices. This has resulted in net stalking & fake rip off reports.
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Re: the CAS-type with the boar Posted by Jen Sider on December 21, 2009, 11:29 pm Found where that originated; neat website; nice dogs. All permissions for use go to; http://www.tobet.kz/index_eng.html

Re: the CAS-type with the boar Posted by Johnny-fairplay on December 23, 2009, 7:20 pm, in reply to "Re: the CAS-type with the boar" Hey, thanks for posting that . Just as I thought they use those sight hound crosses to run down the boar .Wild boar are actually pretty fast and have good stamina. It's unlikely a CAS could catch one on it's own .The boar in the second clip is very small and I would not trust that dog to hold an adult boar without getting it's but kicked .Those dogs are good for running stuff down but not great at killing or holding larger game.That's why they have all the other dogs and the CAS holding the bigger boar.Are those pure CAS ? Or are they mixed to get a hunt type CAS ?(The two in the first clip holding the boar)

Hey J-F - not sure if one should consider them . . . Posted by Jen Sider on December 23, 2009, 8:58 pm, in reply to "Re: the CAS-type with the boar" Central Asian Shepherd, the site they come from has them referred to as Tobet; http://www.tobet.kz/; kind of a progenitor of the named/identified Central Asian Shepherd as we know it today. They consider the Tobet to be the original and the CAS as an off-shoot. Check out the site; they have some neat pics and some more video; and you can read it in English if you need to; the home page has a link.

Re: the CAS-type with the boar Posted by Pops on December 23, 2009, 11:21 pm, in reply to "Re: the CAS-type with the boar" that is about a 60# dog which would make that about 100# hog not quite dog killer size but close. the tazi handled it alone & very well. the way it caught over the nose and thrashing it likely ruptured the sinuses & will cause it to die from shock (which is why most americans want their dogs to catch on the ear, especially if they can sell to a slaughterhouse for the french market). with correct technique they can & do hold very well (but don't take my word for it ask some of the Aussies who use ONLY sighthounds to catch hogs). mine doesn't, but his littermates do. they are in fact very good at catching, holding & even killing large game. unlike bull & mastiff breeds that rely mostly on pure power, sighthounds rely more on technique. Africa on ozziedoggers used to make a living live catching antelope upwards of 600# using only one boergrey per animal. they catch wolves w/ them now in kazahkstan & other central asian republics. american houndsmen using stags, shags & coldbloods have caught (unintentionally mind you) elk & (intentionally) bear & mt lion. heck Custer caught bison w/ his two sighthounds, usually one on the throat & one on a shank or the tail to pin it. so your assesment of the dog's ability from a single video sounds really ignorant. perhaps you should take some time to hunt w/ them before you pass judgement on what they can & can't do. the reason there are so many dogs is the same reason there are so many dogs on bear, boar & cats in the USA. everyone in the hunting party wants to add his dog(s) to the pack. efficiency or ability have nothing to do with it.

Hey Pops; hope you'd check the post out . . . Posted by Jen Sider on December 24, 2009, 7:27 am, in reply to "Re: the CAS-type with the boar" know you work with the sight hounds. Personally I don't think in the one video that they hunt with the Tobet-CAS-type. I just think they are just there as part of the hunting party. I agree that the Tazy seemed to be doing just fine with the hog. When they were in the marshy video; the guy seemed to be concerned about dealing with the hog; so obviously they feel the need to use the dogs; I'm impressed that the sighthound alone is dedicated enough to go in and do the job. Nice work. Opened my eyes. Merry Christmas everyone.

Re: the CAS-type with the boar Posted by Johnny-fairplay on December 25, 2009, 12:28 am, in reply to "Re: the CAS-type with the boar" OK dude ! LOL . I never said they couldn't get the job done . But have you ever caught in the thick bush where you have to crawl in there to kill the pig while the dog is holding it ?That is where you want the bulldog power and grip .You and that sighthoud would get smashed in the thick bush.That's all I'm saying. Not everybody gets to ride up in the open or grass on a four wheeler or on horseback while the dog has run the hog until exhaustion . Did you ever think of that ? No one dog is best for every situation .Where are you from pop's ? More and more I'm seeing people from other countries with a twisted view of stuff that goes on in the USA . Almost everyone I know here (in USA) catches hogs to kill them. They are a feral species in this country that do damage and most farmers want them gone !!! dead !!!! Now I'm not trying to fight with you on here so why don't we just exchange information . What LARGE game have you seen a sight hound kill ? I've seen several sight hounds on a single coyote and it must have taken them up to 15 mins to kill it . It would take them forever to kill a large boar . They are the best at running game down. I'll give it to you there .Under the right circumstances I'm sure they are capable catch dogs also.But I stand by my opinion that I would not go into the thick brush with a rank boar with a sight hound on it !!!! I'll take a little 50lb pit bull that I now is not going to come off that boar no matter what ! They have technique and power ! But hey that's just me . I guess that's my rant for the day . Merry X-mas !!!!! Oh and PS ----why have that CAS type to help out ??? HUUUMMM ???

one heck of a sight hound Posted by tom roberts on December 25, 2009, 12:12 pm, in reply to "Re: the CAS-type with the boar" long time since i posted on this board;looked like a saluki, pops how are the taz related to the saluki?? are they generally tougher than the saluki?? i hunted against the saluki for ten yrs any of those would have tuck tail and run from coyotes??? long time no talk to your not going back to iraq or afganistan are you??have a happy holidays...........tom

Re: one heck of a sight hound Posted by Pops on December 26, 2009, 11:23 am, in reply to "one heck of a sight hound" Hi Tom Tazi has two meanings one is for the landrace sighthounds from turkey but this is just because of the other use for the word. the other use is as a generic for all the asiatic landrace sighthounds. so a borzoi & a saluki are tazi but a tazi isn't necessarily a saluki or borzoi. my mix is tough as boot leather so i'd say it's more down to the dog or line. if kept primarily for show they can be soft & will produce soft dogs. if kept for work & culled hard in a rustic setting they are plenty tough enough. unfortunately i am not going to afghanistan w/ the kids this coming year. for several reasons i am not being permitted to go. i am torn because i hate to send my Marines over and not go w/ them. OTH my boys are 3 and they are kicking my wife's butt on an almost daily basis.

Re: the CAS-type with the boar Posted by Sara R on December 26, 2009, 12:28 pm, in reply to "Re: the CAS-type with the boar" Makes me want to use a few of them for yotes... ALTHOUGH I might rather just lie in wait and hit em' with a bullet... The hunting with dogs though just sounds fun. HARD time finding anyone around here who uses dogs though so...it'll be awhile till I can manage.

Re: one heck of a sight hound Posted by Sara R on December 26, 2009, 12:34 pm, in reply to "Re: one heck of a sight hound" Hey pops what mix do you have? I've done just some online research on the lurchers, or Tazi (did i get that meaning right on that?) and I've noticed that a lot of the folks who do yote hunting with the hounds use Borzoi. Tom, I also see a fair ammount of Saluki too I was surprise that I DIDN'T see more Greyhound crosses too. Any thoughts on breeds and or crosses that would excell in the Yotes? BTW I have SEARCHED And SEARCHED for that lurcher book you had told me about a long time ago and can't for the life of me find ANYTHING...? Any ideas on reading up on them with a book that's more easily found?

Re: the CAS-type with the boar Posted by Sara R on December 26, 2009, 12:40 pm, in reply to "Re: the CAS-type with the boar" Pops is in the US and I'm going to bet he has forgotten more about dogs and hunting (sighthounds specifically) than you could fit in your pinky. JMO

Re: the CAS-type with the boar Posted by Sara R on December 26, 2009, 1:13 pm, in reply to "Re: the CAS-type with the boar" Here's a blog about Lurchers and Yotes: http://terriermandotcom.blogspot.com/2005/06/american-coyote-lurchers-old-and-new.html They really are superior as far as hunting goes because they finish the job, the bullies seem more interested in the fight so we humans can finish the job... Depends on what you want to hunt I guess.

Re: one heck of a sight hound Posted by Pops on December 26, 2009, 1:30 pm, in reply to "Re: one heck of a sight hound" the staghound & coldblood grey are the most common sighthounds used on coyote but some people do run saluki & borzoi blood (pure & mixed). most people running saluki blood are catching coyotes & foxes incidental to hunting jacks. if you join The Hunting Life (it's a brit forum) you can get some leads on good reading about lurchers.

Re: the CAS-type with the boar Posted by Pops on December 26, 2009, 1:32 pm, in reply to "Re: the CAS-type with the boar" i been around a while but the best thing i ever learned in life was to find the guys that know more than i do & pick their brain. the second best thing i ever learned was not to blindly accept anything as gospel from someone who is breed, style or type blind.

Re: the CAS-type with the boar Posted by Pops on December 26, 2009, 2:16 pm, in reply to "Re: the CAS-type with the boar" you wrote "The boar in the second clip is very small and I would not trust that dog to hold an adult boar without getting it's but kicked .Those dogs are good for running stuff down but not great at killing or holding larger game.That's why they have all the other dogs and the CAS holding the bigger boar." i pointed out you made a value judgement on the dog based on a single clip in which (point of fact) the sighthound caught & held a hog 2X it's weight in an entirely adequate fashion (something i have actually seen larger bulldogs fail to do). i also pointed out that heavy holders are not necessary, that sighthounds do in fact catch & hold large dangerous game. additionally i pointed you in the direction of guys w/ far more experience than i hunting longdogs. if you look at the second video you'll note there are at least 4 members to the hunting party NOT counting the cameraman. in the southeastern USA when bear hunting that could mean as many as 50 dogs on the ground because everyone brings their dogs and 10-20 of the dogs capable of putting a bear up alone. hog hunting would mean a few less dogs but still more than on the video. this is because the doggers here like to listen to the dogs run more than catch & the injury that may involve. so once again the number of dogs is directly related to the number of people hunting NOT the ability of the dogs. "I never said they couldn't get the job done" yes, you did, note the bold in the above quote. "have you ever caught in the thick bush where you have to crawl in" yes, on both bear & boar. and i've seen bulldogs crushed to death in there as well. basically they all do sooner or later (except maybe the little dogs like jagds, pats & jrts some of them seem to come out slick & clean no matter how many they catch in the thick stuff). "No one dog is best for every situation" smartest thing you've written so far and the reason i looked into sighthounds in the first place. "More and more I'm seeing people from other countries with a twisted view of stuff that goes on in the USA" i see this more about trapping & catchdogs from europeans that anyone else. "Almost everyone I know here (in USA) catches hogs to kill them" same here but i also know quite a few texans that live catch for resale to certain slaughterhouses for the french boar meat trade. i also know a few guys catching ferals to sell to pay to hunt operation so nimrods can shoot them over feeders. "do damage and most farmers want them gone !!! dead" i know plenty of guys doing the above w/ the hogs they are taking for farmers basically getting paid on both ends. of the ones doing just eradication i find the overwhelming majority use dogs in two ways 1. one or two baydogs and a rifle to shoot a bunch 2. turning out stags & stagXbulls on spotlighted hogs in crops, hayfields & pastures using one or two dogs per hog. i only know one guy doing eradication long term that uses the traditional baydog & catchdog combination BUT he also traps & shoots over just his baydog. "What LARGE game have you seen a sight hound kill ?" the largest i have personally witnessed is hogs around 250# (caught & held) & a whitetail buck that dressed 175-180# (actually killed by the dog before i could get there). "I've seen several sight hounds on a single coyote and it must have taken them up to 15 mins to kill it." were these supposed to be coyote hounds or jackrabbit dogs that stumbled on one? i have friends in ID, NM, OK & IL that are wolfers and all have dogs that catch & kill coyotes solo. not all their dogs will, but the ones they breed from do. the fellas in ID & IL drop multiple dogs on a single coyote because they find they often (20-30% of the time) will bump another coyote or two in the course of running the first one/ my friend in ID has had 4 dogs on 3 seperate coyotes at one time w/ 2 caught & killed. so those were either not coyote dogs or were less than steller. "But I stand by my opinion that I would not go into the thick brush with a rank boar with a sight hound on it !!!! I'll take a little 50lb pit bull that I now is not going to come off that boar no matter what." I OTH will back up any dog that has the guts to do the job regardless of breed. i have seen bulldogs pried dead off an ear & hanging on w/ their guts twisted aroung their legs. BUT i have also seen bulldogs turned into baydogs. I also noticed you use the word kill alot. that says an awful lot about your experiences & nthe people who brought you into hunting w/ dogs. IME most hoghunters (myself included) do not expect, nor desire the dogs to kill the hog (or other game for that matter). Merry Cristmas to you.

Re: the CAS-type with the boar Posted by Johnny-fairplay on December 26, 2009, 5:46 pm, in reply to "Re: the CAS-type with the boar" Hey I don't claim to know everything . Just adding my 2 cent's worth . And I don't expect catch dogs to kill hogs either . Maybe it just came off that way ? I guess the sight hounds I saw were just less than stellar at killing (coyotes)and holding hogs .Thanks for adding your knowledge to the subject . I just like to do things a certain way with certain types of dogs. That's all . "BUT i have also seen bulldogs turned into baydogs. " Well part of my point was that every other breed that I saw catch (including sight hounds) turned into bay dogs after getting whacked .Except for a good bulldog .But again you apparently have seen much better caliber sight hound than I have .

Re: the CAS-type with the boar Posted by Johnny-fairplay on December 26, 2009, 5:53 pm, in reply to "Re: the CAS-type with the boar" "Pops is in the US and I'm going to bet he has forgotten more about dogs and hunting (sighthounds specifically) than you could fit in your pinky. " Huh ??? Did you type that right ? You can't fit much in my pinky ???? LOL . Apparently you are his friend but you have know idea what I know . You guys are sensitive about your sight hounds !!!!!

Re: the CAS-type with the boar Posted by Johnny-fairplay on December 26, 2009, 6:08 pm, in reply to "Re: the CAS-type with the boar" "They really are superior as far as hunting goes because they finish the job, the bullies seem more interested in the fight so we humans can finish the job... Depends on what you want to hunt I guess. " Umm I never said a bully was a better hunter . They are not . The bullies are catch dogs . Not hunting dogs or sight hounds that run prey long distance . But If you think a sight hound can finish the job faster than A bully than woman you are on crack !!! LOL .By finish the job I assume you mean kill a coyote . It takes several dogs to kill (coyote) like a good bulldog(or CAS) . Really --- what is your experience in this ??? I would bet a big fat zero !!!! Pops please don't chime in here and tell me a sight hound can kill faster than a bully !!!!You would loose all credibility in my eyes !!!!! Please don't break my heart pops !!!!!! I know she is your buddy defending you but lets keep it real !!! Hey isn't this board about molossers ???? Why are we talking about sight hounds and bulldogs !!!!! LMAO !!!!!

Re: the CAS-type with the boar Posted by JD on December 26, 2009, 6:58 pm, in reply to "Re: the CAS-type with the boar" It only takes ONE cas to kill a coyote. they were bred specific for predator control. Small coyotes can be killed by large sight hounds. Coyotes can range from 30 pounds to 70 pounds. It takes several CAS or LGDS to kill a wolf because wolves HUNT in packs. Coyotes will often hunt as loners so they are a easy kill for a LGD. CAS are not alone ASD PRY Akbash Maramma are often ONE lgd dogs that kill coyotes daily. Working LGDS grab by neck bite down and snap. And im sure a bulldog can do it too but will have more injuries with tails ear flaps no fur and no double dew.

Re: the CAS-type with the boar Posted by Johnny-fairplay on December 26, 2009, 7:40 pm, in reply to "Re: the CAS-type with the boar" "It only takes ONE cas to kill a coyote. they were bred specific for predator control. " No kidding . they are huge . "Small coyotes can be killed by large sight hounds." No kidding . Coyotes out west are pretty small .You would be really surprised at how many dogs don't have what it takes to kill a small coyote .One shot to the nose and they don't want anymore of that !! LOL. "It takes several CAS or LGDS to kill a wolf because wolves HUNT in packs. Coyotes will often hunt as loners so they are a easy kill for a LGD. " I agree wolves are really only dangerous to large dogs when they are in a pack . Then they are very dangerous . A coyote may be an easy kill but almost impossible to catch out in the open. Really only the sight hounds can run them down. "Working LGDS grab by neck bite down and snap. " Like rice crispies ----snap crackel pop !!!! dead coyote !!!! "And im sure a bulldog can do it too but will have more injuries with tails ear flaps no fur and no double dew. " A coyote is less likely to get away from a bulldog once they have a grip . There's nothing a coyote is gonna do to back off a good bulldog .They don't seem to mind those little injuries ! Hey ear flaps can be docked just like in the CAS . Don't need a dew flap against a coyote .Fur is good for keeping a dog warm .Nice talking to you. Are the coyotes around you crazy enough to come on your property ?

Re: the CAS-type with the boar Posted by Sara R on December 26, 2009, 7:45 pm, in reply to "Re: the CAS-type with the boar" Well the experience I have with yotes and dogs is in the LGD department and many LGD's I've known have killed their fair share of Coyotes all by their lonesome. I also specifically remember a post above by Pops that discusses the killing of a yote by a single lurcher or larger sight hound. While I have not hunted coyote with dogs etc... I have plenty of experience with dogs protecting flocks that have resulted in yote death. ALso remember size of yote is a big deal too and where I'm at our dogs are smaller than those back east...I'm still trying to figure out why.

Re: the CAS-type with the boar Posted by JD on December 26, 2009, 8:13 pm, in reply to "Re: the CAS-type with the boar" When a CAS runs down a coyote it is not a strait race the dog can figure out the zig and zag and on occasion the wrong Zig gets a Coyote nailed by the CAS fmale on the zag. That is because we have fencing , more than one dog working, and woods. Coyotes attack barns not in open fields since the ranchers normally pen up livestock at nite and they come in for it. So they get killed when caught in a area they can get speed for. Male CAs have short quick bursts of speed and run out of stream qick and than do a heavy trot, females can just keep going 80 pound b###h can turn on dime, jump 6 ft in air to catch birds , and have JUMPED over a coyote when the chase is on and the coyote gets stopped by another dog and she cant get the brakes on, and YES that coyote gets away it outsmarted the dog knowing she was inches away from eating him in full speed. teh dead stop screwed up the chase long enough for the dog to lose ground. The SHounds would of been able to stop long enough to catch. Coyotes here are 70 plus pounds a female CAS can not kill in ONE bite a 150 male can. Thus the battle last a bit longer and the FUR is eaten by the coyote penned by the neck down as the dog fighhts him , the coyote is grabbing FUR and LOOSE LOOOSE skin. he never gets to the back for the tail and normally is UNDER the dog so the ears dont take much on small coyote. But the Coyotes NAILS are dug into BOTTOm of dog in battle thus a dog with FUR and loose skin have a advantage CAs lose TUFFS of fur that the coyote bit or scratched off. Also a mother stays with her cubs for a long time they will come in together and as the dog GRIPPS one coyote the other one can grip NO tail, no ears, and loose FURRY skin,' The deserts of the kara kum hit 120 during the day. If the nomads wanted a NO fur breed assuming they were only need fur to keep them warm. They would of used the Italian War dogs the Italians brougth with them. Fur and loose skin is armor for dogs, it also works as a insulator for heat and INFECTion. When a wound does occur it helps that the skin is ripped NOT muscle or viens as well as the fur can keep off bugs flies that can cause 2dnary skin infection. My sheep bang into every ting they can fence walls . When they do it SHEERED in summer I have to get VET here. And I have to wash it and use anotibotics all the time. When they do it in winter in FULL coat, I use blue kote spary NO Vet,'NO daily nothing it heals quick buried under FUR. FELTED FUR. We find this out how? When we sheer them and find OLD wounds cleared up the dead skin cells and BLOOD is on the old felt we are sheering off. And yes every few years we get the ridge coyotes coming in for lambs Record here is above 80 pounds by hunter.

Re: the CAS-type with the boar Posted by Pops on December 26, 2009, 10:44 pm, in reply to "Re: the CAS-type with the boar" one point i forgot. sighthounds only run certain animals to exhaustion and that would be the ones that are faster like antelope, jacks & cheetah. scenthounds are the dogs that run to exhaustion in order to catch. harder trailing dogs like curs & terriers use hard biting to get the animal to stop & fight. w/ slower game like hogs, deer & rabbits it's pure speed & a solid catch that brings home the meat.

Re: the CAS-type with the boar Posted by Johnny-fairplay on December 26, 2009, 11:22 pm, in reply to "Re: the CAS-type with the boar" "Record here is above 80 pounds by hunter" Wow !! Thats a big yote .

Not out in the open???? Posted by Sara R on December 27, 2009, 11:34 am, in reply to "Re: the CAS-type with the boar" JF where the heck are you???? Not sure if you know I'm in Wyoming and unless we're up in the mountains...trees are hard to come by. Open is all we've got around here if its' not in the open...yote isn't dead... Ever seen hunters use dogs to bring a yote in so they can shoot it???? Sometimes they use a pair sometimes just one... BUT dog lures the yote in close and hunter nails it... Not a hound either, not some dog who can run miles or whatever...no dog who has a double suspension gallop....sometimes a cur, sometimes just a good retriever...dog circles out like he's going to chase the yote then comes back...over and over a few times till hunter can get the yote in his sights....kills the yote... I watched one guy get six yotes in one sitting (an hour maybe two) and that included a shot that missed and the dogs brought that same coyote in for the kill shot. NOW take the dude with the gun away and add a kill dog to that mix an ambush would be rather easy. Dogs seem to be the Kriptonite for the Coyotes. If you haven't seen that stuff and you're into predator hunting I'd definately look up a DVD that has it on there. SURE is something to watch... BTW JD I think the record out here for size of yotes is something around 50lbs? Hard to say for sure though, lots of people run them down in helicopters or snow mobiles and will leave them...we have so many I guess that the bounty can be had and still end up with enough for the need to control them by other means.

pops and sara r Posted by tom roberts on December 30, 2009, 1:06 pm, in reply to "Re: one heck of a sight hound" hope we are all doing well;so pops a tazi is generic for sitehound got it;i'm happy and sad that your not going back, i kinda understand your deliema,i was in the service way back in the day,although it was only the air force;hope fully we will out of that country sooner than later so we can bring are people back safley;hi sara long time no write too;i dont rememeber which long dog books we were talking about;that was some time ago;yes they are very hard too find;i dont now were you are in wyoming; but if you google loomis coyote racing days there are two guys who run coyote racing between april and august in loomis nebraska;also if you you look up nitros coyote hunting page and go to message boards there is a staghound section;in this section there is a lady who also sponsers races on the south east kansas and she has her phone number there; both places are kinda swap meet and racing maybe pic yourself up a sitehound;sorry it took so long to get back no computer at home libary computers are so fun;see you all down the road............tom

Re: pops and sara r Posted by Sara R on December 30, 2009, 9:20 pm, in reply to "pops and sara r" THANKS for the leads Tom! I'm in Cheyenne WY so might be able to hit Loomis at least. My hubby would like to see that too so may even take a little trip to Kansas as well. Hope your holidays were good and I wish you all a happy new year.

Re: pops and sara r Posted by Pops on December 30, 2009, 10:09 pm, in reply to "pops and sara r" the other big one is Thayer Kansas

Re: pops and sara r Posted by tom roberts on January 6, 2010, 11:21 am, in reply to "Re: pops and sara r" i hope everyone had a happy holidays!!!!sara had to remember the the books, my ex wife has my books;google dutch salmon of high lonesome books,you might have too use different searches to find his books;also you might want google brian plummer,make sure you to add lurcher to youre search and also plummer terriers,he wrote plenty of books on terriers and lurchers;hope every body has a good year i will check in when i can; see ya ...........tom

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