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guarddogs Posted by adnan on March 23, 2008, 1:28 pm 78.21.214.212 I have always been a big fan of the molosser breeds.I am planning to purchase one,but i am confused wich breed to choose.I love these 3 breeds:cane corso,dogo argentino and the bullmastiff.I have a family with 2 small kids,but I would like to own a dog that is easy to train,meaning:to do agility,shutzhund,etc.A good guarddog and a great family companian.Wich one of the above 3 breeds is best suited?  Post a Response

Re: guarddogs Posted by Karen on March 23, 2008, 2:01 pm, in reply to "guarddogs" 76.21.226.117 What is youe experience with Molosser breeds? This will be the first place we can start to help you. Why I ask in that I get a lot of Molossers in my business and a big mistake people make is not that they got one but they got one out of their current abilities.  Post a Response

Re: guarddogs Posted by Dogodame on March 23, 2008, 11:52 pm, in reply to "Re: guarddogs" 75.105.220.9 ALso, with kids, you want to be honest about how much time you will have to train this dog to do the things you mentioned. Training like that takes time and money, which seem to be in short supply when you have little ones it seems.  Post a Response

Re: guarddogs Posted by adnan on March 24, 2008, 7:33 am, in reply to "Re: guarddogs" 78.21.214.212 In my youth,at my parents home,we owned a rottweiler,wich we attended obedience classes with.A real wonderful dog.Lived with us till the end.My grandparents were the proud owners of a boxer.  Post a Response

Re: guarddogs Posted by adnan on March 24, 2008, 7:49 am, in reply to "Re: guarddogs" 78.21.214.212 I don't think time is an issue.I am prepared to dedicated my spare time to the training.Because I realy love dogs!If I am not capable to do that,then I would never consider owning a dog of any kind of breed.Unfortunatly,I've witnessed a few bad examples of ownership,so I don't take this lightly.  Post a Response

Re: guarddogs Posted by Karen on March 24, 2008, 7:58 am, in reply to "Re: guarddogs" 76.21.226.117 OK, how long ago was this - many of the rarer breeds are a lot more dog than a wellbred Rottie and a Boxer. They are drivier and not as watered down in temperament as many more common Molossers. Any dog can be taught to alert bark and often this is enough. Also, with children (and this is coming from a parent), unless you are home a lot during the day to work with the dog and children, I would be leery about a rarer Molosser breed who may need a more experienced owner and/or more time than a more common one. Many issues I see in my classes stem from: ***Wrong match of a dog for the house ***Owner with too little time for a dog and this is complicated when there are children and worsened when a breed needing more work is obtained Depending on how much time you have and how long it has been since you have had a Molosser, I would recommend either: ***Going with what you know best at this time and then move up to a breed that needs a more experienced owner or more time than something you know well. There will be less surprises in a time when you may not need more suprises. Think of people who get Border Collies when they should get a Sheltie - both active herding breeds but a BC is a lot more dog and a lot more work due to the stronger drives. ***Not getting a dog at all right now (you do not state how old your kids are) and wait until they are older and a bit more independant and understanding of empathy/their actions have reactions (the younger the child, the less they understand about true empathy). ***If you must get one soon, you may be best off looking at an American Bulldog from lines known to be calmer. Some lines are hardcore working lines and may be more than owners may be able to handle in a way that is best for the dog and the family. Years ago I worked with a couple families who got Beagles from pure, 100% hunting only lines. Much different than working with Beagles bred more for companionship and show, though there should be no difference in temperament and drive, there will be in many lines in a breed. I also recommend that you get out and contact rescues regarding the breeds you are looking at at get volunteering, handling the dogs, etc., if you really must get a rarer Molosser now. Get that experience under the guide of hopefully knowledgable people. Why? There will always be a breeder willing to sell to anyone regardless of the person's situation.  Post a Response

Re: guarddogs Posted by Karen on March 24, 2008, 8:01 am, in reply to "Re: guarddogs" 76.21.226.117 How much spare time? An hour a day? Two? Three??? I am an at home mom who works part time doing training and behavioral consults and even I cannot get in all the time I know my dogs need to be top competitors at this point without placing my youngest in day care all day as my sister does - even on the days she is not at work, my neice may be in daycare so the dogs can get more training... I am happy with working on manners and conformation work now with performance and working coming up when my youngest is in all day kindergarten or at least preschool five mornings a week next school year. At this point, with my experience with rare molossers, I would not even consider one due to time.  Post a Response

Re: guarddogs Posted by adnan on March 24, 2008, 8:36 am, in reply to "Re: guarddogs" 78.21.214.212 Considiring the age of my children(5 and 2 years of age),indeed it would be wise to wait a couple of years to purchase one.  Post a Response

Re: guarddogs Posted by Jill B on March 24, 2008, 8:48 am, in reply to "Re: guarddogs" 71.255.178.198 I think you are making a very smart decision and in the meantime you can continue educating yourself on the different breeds you think you might like when the time is right. Contact some of the rescue folks that deal with these breeds because they are usually very generous with their knowledge and insight. Best wishes to you and please keep us posted.  Post a Response

Re: guarddogs Posted by adnan on March 24, 2008, 8:51 am, in reply to "Re: guarddogs" 78.21.214.212 That's useful advise!Considiring your words,honestley,I realy need to get more experience with those rare molosses breeds.They aren't all rotties and boxers.I used to think,if I choose a breed that isn't watered down,it would be safer?Plus,to voluntere helping in a rescue shelter,that's a good idea!  Post a Response

Re: guarddogs Posted by Karen on March 24, 2008, 9:27 am, in reply to "Re: guarddogs" 76.21.226.117 If you get a well bred more common breed and do your job as an owner, my feeling is you may be better off than getting a rarer breed when you (and this is a general "you" and not specifically at YOU) are not really ready for one. I have always owned a very common breed but have gone through good breeders for my dogs and the difference in amazing! Even my rescue Pyr was from a good breeder - a lot of dog but far better than the ones that are being haphazrdly bred by some doofus locally who is also breeding wolf hybrids and was considering crossing them with a Pyr!  Post a Response

Wolf hybrid x Pyr? Posted by Jill B on March 24, 2008, 1:10 pm, in reply to "Re: guarddogs" 71.255.186.126 What a moron.  Post a Response

Re: guarddogs Posted by Katrina on March 25, 2008, 9:17 am, in reply to "guarddogs" 64.23.154.194 I had a Bullmastiff and an Am. Bulldog. I was about 8 or 9 when we got him. They are good with children, gentle and protective. The Am Bulldog was good too but, in my opinion, the Bullmastiff is a good family dog. But, I agree with Karen, you might want to do more research on the breeds. Try to see some in person. Also, you might want to check out this link. Good luck. http://bullmastiff.us/AboutBullmastiffs/About.html  Post a Response

Contact breeders and owners first Posted by cath on March 26, 2008, 11:29 pm, in reply to "Re: guarddogs" 24.150.64.253 Rescue people often don't have much knowledge about dogs in general.  Post a Response

Re: Contact breeders and owners first Posted by Jill B on March 27, 2008, 5:58 pm, in reply to "Contact breeders and owners first" 72.84.149.94 Good advice but I have found that breed specific rescues really do have experience and knowledge about the breeds they evaluate and re-home.  Post a Response

Not many though they sure think they do Posted by cath on March 29, 2008, 8:23 am, in reply to "Re: Contact breeders and owners first" 24.150.64.253 Not to mention many lean towards the mental illness of animal rights.  Post a Response

So no rescues suit you Posted by Jill B on March 29, 2008, 1:21 pm, in reply to "Not many though they sure think they do" 63.27.5.130 and because someone doesn't share your viewpoints they are mentally ill. I've seen your "contributions" on different dog boards and your nasty attitude puts people off that might have been willing to consider your point. Name calling doesn't actually count as offering solutions but I'm sure you know that. Hmmmmm heres a novel idea maybe YOU should actually start doing some rescue work since you seem to know it all.  Post a Response

Re: Contact breeders who have backgrounds in rescue Posted by JD on March 29, 2008, 2:29 pm, in reply to "Contact breeders and owners first" 74.78.141.105 Sorry I find breeders who start in rescue have more knowledge then breeders who limit themselves to 1-2 breeds. I have SOLD many a Cane Corso , RR, Leo, Co , without every owning one. By evaluating the person calling or the person I meet in dog world and helping them make a match with a breed ive worked with rescued but NEVER owned. Rescue people have a better understanding of what it takes to be a un ethical dog breeder. All who breed must rescue those left behind. And all who breed should have to hold a unwanted dog of any breed while it die based on NO homes. Maybe then more breeders would be more careful about unwanted dog breeding resulting in rescues. And despite the politics behind the Peta groups Aspca it is NO denying we have more shitty breeders than good which results in Rescues. Anyone who breeds a dog should be required by law to take it back before it gets into a shelter or PTS their own dog if someone is not willing to do it..  Post a Response

Proud to be mentally ILL Posted by JD on March 29, 2008, 2:32 pm, in reply to "Not many though they sure think they do" 74.78.141.105 If caring about dogs that wind up in rescue, or wanting rights for animals such as 1. Stopping all pet stores from selling puppies and kittens. 2. Requiring commercial breeders to NOT use wire crates for housing with wire floors, requiring a b###h not to be bred every season till it dies. 3. Requiring food and water be available. 4. And requiring breeders to take responsibility for the souls they create. Then hell yes IM mentally ill and proud of it. Not all who support animal rights want to let Minks run loose you know...  Post a Response

Thank you, JD Posted by Jill B on March 29, 2008, 2:50 pm, in reply to "Re: Contact breeders who have backgrounds in rescue" 63.27.8.251 When I had my Tosa, Laura who was a breeder and also did rescue, was beyond generous with her experience and advice. She wasn't even the breeder of my dog. I am forever thankful for her kindness for my girl and also for the many neglected, homeless animals she worked so hard to help. I know someone else who does Pit rescue and is very knowlegeable about bully breeds. The screening for my latest rescue dog, a Presa/Corso mix, was thorough but not over the top and imo with these breeds it is particularily important that the new home is suitable.  Post a Response

No, I'm saying animal rightists are mentally ill Posted by cath on March 29, 2008, 11:32 pm, in reply to "So no rescues suit you" 24.150.64.253 Its a sign of how crazy society has become that people think they aren't. I could care less what you think especially since I've seen you promote their BS on numerous occasions. People like you do a lot of harm to the dog community by doing so.  Post a Response

Its entering the realm of the ridiculous Posted by cath on March 29, 2008, 11:36 pm, in reply to "Proud to be mentally ILL " 24.150.64.253 When people want to legislate everything about people's lives for their own good. Those who would meddle in the lives of others to such extremes are no better than irresponsible owners who could care less about any laws. Anyone who supports animal rights supports the end of all animal use and that includes having pets whether they know it or not.  Post a Response

You never offer solutions only Posted by JD on March 30, 2008, 8:57 am, in reply to "Its entering the realm of the ridiculous" 74.78.141.105 You only repeat again and again NO LAWS what so ever - You never offer a solution to the pet over population, the many owners who who dogs that should NOT - who cause BSL, and to the many breeders who gives a rats ass what where who gets their dogs.. Our country was founded on LAWS, it took us out of the Dark ages and COLD War. If you dont want any laws for dog breeding than move to a 3rd world country where they eat, tortue or just dont care. Or get off your high horse and write a LAW here or a regulation you would back..  Post a Response

Don't be so quick to buy into animal rights BS Posted by cath on March 30, 2008, 10:22 pm, in reply to "You never offer solutions only" 68.25.139.46 Learn about why pets are surrendered. The numbers in pounds don't automatically mean overpopulation. *** the many owners who who dogs that should NOT - who cause BSL, and to the many breeders who gives a rats ass what where who gets their dogs.. And what qualifies you or anyone else to make those decisions for others? You're not qualified to do it. No one is. Euthanasia has gone dramatically down and education is why. It does work. People need to realize there are problems with no easy solutions. You will NEVER be able to force people to be responsible. What we don't need is people in the dog community working against responsible dog owners. *** If you dont want any laws for dog breeding than move to a 3rd world country where they eat, tortue or just dont care. Wrong. You don't care more than people who recognize more laws are not the answer.  Post a Response

So? I don't know about you but many in rescue are part of the problem Posted by cath on March 30, 2008, 10:37 pm, in reply to "Re: Contact breeders who have backgrounds in rescue" 68.25.139.46 Many who claim the same thing are HORRIBLE at evaluating dogs and potential owners. They also think their WANTS are whats right and want to force them on everyone. *** Rescue people have a better understanding of what it takes to be a un ethical dog breeder. No they don't. More often than not the ones I've met didn't know the first thing about breeding other than what was needed is a male and a female. *** And despite the politics behind the Peta groups Aspca it is NO denying we have more shitty breeders than good which results in Rescues. How would you know? You don't. You're buying into animal rights bull$--t. There actually has been research done on why animals are turned in and its not the fault of breeders as ARs like to claim. They claim it because they want to stop all breeding. Many in rescue play right into their hands and they hurt us all by doing so.  Post a Response

Re: Its entering the realm of the ridiculous Posted by Jaime on March 31, 2008, 4:26 am, in reply to "Its entering the realm of the ridiculous" 207.200.116.6 Ok first off lets get something squared away, any rescue person that is ethically pursuing helping those in need would be offended by being coined animal rights. Animal Welfare is what we practice not rights.I already have my right, I have the right to place that dog or keep it or kill it, that is my right, but I do not have the right to set in stone what all of you will practice based on my own personal beliefs. I do however have the right to decide the welfare of animals that are physically in my care. That would be the diff. HSUS hasnt one shelter operating anywhere and try to throw that Welfare word around as if they practice it. Breeders are only a small part of the big problem. You have so many other factors that weigh in such as insurance companies, home owner associations, population explosions, the list goes on and on. And what about those shelters? Most shelters that are contracted to provide animal services to the public are paid to do so by each city and then you have to pay them for licensing and rabies and fines etc. If they are a for profit organization which most are, they too should be responsible for keeping up with at least the population increase by stepping up their services by using the money they get paid. just my take but pretty accurate  Post a Response

Re: guarddogs-definately NOT A DOGO! Posted by maureen on March 31, 2008, 12:19 pm, in reply to "guarddogs" 67.189.232.238 A dogo is first and foremost a hunting breed, not for guard work!Plus, unless you get someone who REALLY KNOWS the dogo mentality, you can easily create ruin the dog and/or create a man killer. They are too powerful to toy with, especially if you have no experience with them. They become bored quite easily and would reather be hunting down prey instead of doing agility. WHy not go with a breed that was created specifically for Sch like a Malnois or Rott????? I have seen some Cane Corso's do well with flyball and Sch. A bullmastiff I dont think will have the endurance. What about an APBT or AB? They also do great with sport work.  Post a Response

Re: guarddogs Posted by Nico on April 1, 2008, 5:11 pm, in reply to "guarddogs" 76.208.131.73 Get a BANDOG!  Post a Response

Re: So? I don't know about you but many in rescue are part of the problem Posted by AmyB on April 1, 2008, 8:36 pm, in reply to "So? I don't know about you but many in rescue are part of the problem" 69.246.107.149 Have you ever done rescue cath? Reading research on it isn't the same thing. I am no fan of AR groups. I believe working dogs should be worked and hunting dogs should be hunted - their idealogy goes against what I believe in. I have to say it's not just AR people that believe breeders are part of the problem with dogs in rescues. When I read your posts, it's like reading "there is a dalmation, what color is it?" The ARs say it's black but cath says it's really white because of some research she read. Reality is that it's black and white. Breeders are ultimately the ones that bring dogs into the world and, thus, are ultimately responsible for where those dogs wind up. There are lots of breeders out there that are only breeding for money - anyone who can pay will get a dog. After they get it and 1) can't handle it, 2) find out it's too much work, 3) grows bigger than what they expected, 4) is beyond their dog skills, 5) eats little Joey's toy he left laying on the floor so they decide it's a bad dog, 6) etc., etc., etc. they then dump it in a rescue. Good breeders will evaluate a home before selling a pup to try to avoid an improper placement. That's the same thing good rescues do. Good rescues want to place the dog in a home that is going to be permanent and screen potential homes to avoid getting a dog returned. There are a lot of good resues out there that get to see first hand the crappy lives of dogs that were sold by greedy breeders to people who were improper for the breed (or for any dog for that matter). Working in rescue before you become a breeder gives you a first hand look at what can happen to your dogs if you don't screen buyers carefully and it also gives you good experience on how to screen people BEFORE you start dropping puppies on the ground. There are people who will fool even the most careful breeders and rescuers but a great deal of improper homings could be avoided if there weren't a lot of breeders whose only concern is making money. By the way, JD isn't buying into AR BS, she's speaking from first hand experience - not from research she read somewhere. Not everyone who has experience that differs from your opinions is buying into PETA or AR BS, which happens to be a common theme in your posts whenever anyone posts anything that differs from your opinions. Just my 2 cents. Amy B  Post a Response

Re: So? I don't know about you but many in rescue are part of the problem Posted by JD on April 2, 2008, 11:22 am, in reply to "So? I don't know about you but many in rescue are part of the problem" 74.78.141.105 Cath I read this and ignored it since my mood is not good not your fault. You dont rescue - I do and even today I still help transport and get dogs in to homes. Ive worked in shelters and rescue places since I was 11 years old and I did raise funds door to door for the North shore animal leaguer. Added to this I get out and I work show judge test breed dogs every year for 11 years so you know what my opinion is NOT based on cut and paste. I let you have the last word because with you you dont have any way but caths way. But dont think you are turning this board into Cath world. PS Most rescue people I work with are retired breeders.  Post a Response

At this age nothing is quick Posted by JD on April 2, 2008, 4:16 pm, in reply to "Don't be so quick to buy into animal rights BS" 74.78.141.105 Pls by all means enligthen us to the stats of putting dogs down per state and compare them to a decrease. Sorry I live in NY the stats are UP here.  Post a Response

Its not the breeders fault so many turn in dogs for the wrong reasons Posted by cath on April 2, 2008, 10:37 pm, in reply to "Re: So? I don't know about you but many in rescue are part of the problem" 209.59.43.32 Yes I have been involved in rescue but got sick of the god complexes, pet nazi attitudes, the swing away from animal welfare towards animal rights and general lack of knowledge about dogs. People who know little about dogs are not good screeners. Blaming breeders for dogs being turned into pounds or shelters is like Rosie O'Donnell blaming McDonald's for her being fat. There will always be irresponsible breeders and bad owners will always be bad owners. And yes, that is AR BS. They've been saying it for many years because they think all breeding is bad and want to stop it all. AR propaganda is more pervasive than many realize.  Post a Response

Re: Its not the breeders fault so many turn in dogs for the wrong reasons Posted by JD on April 2, 2008, 11:21 pm, in reply to "Its not the breeders fault so many turn in dogs for the wrong reasons" 74.78.141.105 Cath point I my contract says dump my pups I sue u after i hunt you down. Breeders should keep in touch with buyers and should have a verbal or written agreement to take the dog back if need be. You create it you are resposible. We can screen buyers all we want yes but in the end it is us who decide what happens to our dogs. Last one I drove 500 miles rt in one day to get mine in a messy divorce. He is living here happy and sound and not draining resourses.  Post a Response

Re: Its not the breeders fault so many turn in dogs for the wrong reasons Posted by Jill B on April 3, 2008, 4:39 pm, in reply to "Its not the breeders fault so many turn in dogs for the wrong reasons" 71.255.182.190 so you stopped doing rescue because you couldn't find a group you liked to work with? Thats a sorry excuse.  Post a Response

Re: Its not the breeders fault so many turn in dogs for the wrong reasons Posted by Sara R on April 3, 2008, 5:18 pm, in reply to "Re: Its not the breeders fault so many turn in dogs for the wrong reasons" 65.114.202.254 Well, Gotta love the USA we do have the right to do such a thing. I'd wager that if someone went to Cath with a need for rescue, a genuine need, knowledge and not the overdone "become this poor dog's guardian" attitude she'd be more than happy to be involved. I myself don't consider my own activities "being involved" and I certainly don't support any one org. If I hadn't already stated that I help with transport when needed or I help place dogs I come accrossed I'd probably be in your cross hairs too. I'm not quite sure why the strife between the two of you...three of you... Cath has opinions, I tend to share most of them, she's vocal and honestly I think that's GREAT...what she's doing for rescue is educating people who are likely to come accrossed a rescue...giving them the knowledge to not get sucked in, learn about the breed or dog they want to rescue on their own and don't assume that the rescue is the end all and be all out there. They are not, there is a need, nobody's denying that... But rescues as a majority don't tend to contribute nearly as much to the "problem" of homeless dogs as breeders, responsible breeders do... JD... Rescues that you are involved with are nearly all run by retired breeders...they work well...right? Honestly...I'd consider this a win for the breeder, not the rescue org. JMO.  Post a Response

Re: Its not the breeders fault so many turn in dogs for the wrong reasons Posted by Jill B on April 3, 2008, 5:42 pm, in reply to "Re: Its not the breeders fault so many turn in dogs for the wrong reasons" 71.255.182.190 "I'm not quite sure why the strife between the two of you...three of you... Cath has opinions, I tend to share most of them" Well I don't share those opinions and resent the fact that she accuses me of supporting PETA in every other post because I don't agree with her views. I would have been happy to agree to disagree but she prefers to hurl unnecessary insults and frankly I'm about one insult away from writing a big fat check to the HSUS in her honor. "she's vocal and honestly I think that's GREAT...what she's doing for rescue is educating people who are likely to come accrossed a rescue" Fine with me but again I don't think her paranoid cut and paste 911s are helping anyone nor do I see the need for someone to be educated in case they are "likely to come acrossed a rescue".  Post a Response

Re: Its not the breeders fault so many turn in dogs for the wrong reasons Posted by Jill B on April 3, 2008, 5:58 pm, in reply to "Re: Its not the breeders fault so many turn in dogs for the wrong reasons" 71.255.182.190 "If I hadn't already stated that I help with transport when needed or I help place dogs I come accrossed I'd probably be in your cross hairs too." Wow I missed this when I first responded but yeah I'm not the only one who found it odd that you offered to adopt not one, but several different breeds of dogs off this board and then acted insulted when the owners didn't take you up on the offer.  Post a Response

Re: Its not the breeders fault so many turn in dogs for the wrong reasons Posted by Sara R on April 3, 2008, 6:20 pm, in reply to "Re: Its not the breeders fault so many turn in dogs for the wrong reasons" 65.114.202.254 So far I haven't actually offered to adopt any dogs on the board rather, offered to take a look to see if I would be suitable just in case... Usually in that context I end up finding more about the said dog and even if I am not the home for the dog I can forward the information on to someone who may be the right home etc... Usually when I respond to a post like that it's either for myself or I know someone looking for that particular breed or a dog who does that breed's work etc... I find it more odd that you have apparently taken that curiousity out of context and jumped to the conlusion that there is some sort of ill will on my part or some other negative connotation with that behavior... Least I'm stepping up to learn more about dogs posted etc... The insulted moment I had regarding a dog was in regards to a Presa if I remember correctly and it wasn't even a post...I responded via email about the dog and the person looking to place the dog chose to dis-regard my making note of the fact that the breed is a serious a hard breed to re-home etc... My email was a response to the post asking to place the dog that included the thought I may be right for her, as well as some more education about the breed. The poster seemed less educated about the breed than one would probably like to see and so the need for the dog to find a safe place rather than an ignorant rescue (ignorant of the breeds pitfalls)was serious in my opinion so I did find it unnerving that she was unwilling to even take advice in response to her own post. You seem more purturbed about MUCH more off the wall statements than this sort of thing. In fact when I did respond to your question about rescues that people support, you were gracious in pointing out that you are aware that I do my part and the question wasn't directed at me. Over half of my dogs are rescued and I've placed and rescued a number more than that...either helping them find their original owner, getting them to the original breeder, pulling a few from the shelter to get them into breed specific rescues etc... If you want to point a nasty finger at someone for showing interest in dogs who need placement I suggest you find someone to point at other than myself. Sara  Post a Response

Re: Its not the breeders fault so many turn in dogs for the wrong reasons Posted by Jill B on April 3, 2008, 7:31 pm, in reply to "Re: Its not the breeders fault so many turn in dogs for the wrong reasons" 72.84.152.222 "In fact when I did respond to your question about rescues that people support, you were gracious in pointing out that you are aware that I do my part and the question wasn't directed at me." Exactly and the question was directed toward Cath originally anyway so I don't understand why you continue to feel the the need to interject as her minion in response to my posts.  Post a Response

Yes and no - devil's advocate here... Posted by Karen on April 4, 2008, 7:19 am, in reply to "Re: Its not the breeders fault so many turn in dogs for the wrong reasons" 76.21.226.117 Yes and no... It is the breeders/responsibility responsibility to say yes or no to a placement. I have worked with some really BAD placements in the past few years from both breeders AND allegedly good rescues. I had to recommend with more than I like that the dog be returned or rehomed. In each case there were many red flags the breeders ignored in their need to place grown out show pups or retired show dogs. I personally knew the breeders in some cases and was shocked they would make the placements. I knew the rescues in ALL the cases (had adopted from a couple myself - small pets). A couple years back I wrote on article based on what I was seeing that did get published. It did open a few eyes. A few of the placeents - BREEDERS - HIGHLY RESPECTED ONES IN THEIR BREEDS LOCALLY - here are three Older adolescent dog to a couple with five kids - all under ten (three under five) - parents work all day and kids home with a nanny - mom told me they got the dog to keep the kids active and the dog was a wreck. Young pup placed with a family (at home mom) with several active boys, only one in school, and mom was pregnant again. Breeder placed a dog with a couple whose wife did not want the dog but breeder did not pick up on her body language or the fact that she refused to talk to the breeder and hubby did all the talking. Wife was to be primary caregiver of the dog. Wife would not even touch the dogs at the house. But hubby was alluring to breeder and knew what to day - runner, experienced with big dogs, etc. But wife was home all day with dog. RESCUES - FOUR Placed a GSD pup with a pushing feeble elderly woman. Woman physically could not manage a large dog and rescue should have had her handle a large dog to show what would happen soon. She needed a smaller dog that was out of the puppy/adolescent stage. She had a lot to offer a dog, just not the one she wanted. Rescue just saw a woman home all day who had GSD experience (from decades ago). I spoke to the rescue myself with why I wanted them to take the dog back before the woman was severely hurt. Placed a dog not ready for adoption in a home with a woman who had a doggy door, no solid fence and who used old school training - set the dog's work back significantly. (The dog was foster with possibility of adoption in this home). They rehomed the dog at my insistance and that of another trainer and the dog is doing great! Placed a dog with a couple who was military and both work FULL time. Dog is a HIGHHIGHHIGH energy dog and gets limited work. Dog is a mess. Hubby never wanted an active dog (he wanted sedentary), wife wanted a possibly agility dog. Rescue only heard this part and placed a dog 100% unsuited for this home. Wife is now pregnant, hubby is not stepping up with the dog, dog has to go for his own sanity. What people placing dogs need to realize is: 1 - many potential owners overestimate their abilities. 2 - many potential owners have impressions that may not be realistic - such as think a higher energy dog will be fine with a half hour walk twice a day, except when it is raining, cold, they are tired, etc. 3 - many potential owners do not realize how much work kids and dogs are and assume the children will do most of the work keeping the dog busy and active. 4 - many do not think the true long term as well as the day to day. And this is ust a few of the issues I run into (there are more) when I go in to consut regarding a bad placement. One of the HARDEST things for me to do is recommend rehoming or returning a dog. I hate to do it but there are times I have to for the sanity and safety of everyone - and before the dog becomes a dog who cannot be placed. When humans overestimate themselves and breeders and rescues do not read between the lines and ask more in depth questions, this is when issues happen. There is a reason many rescues are nazis in regards to placing dogs. Though I hate blanket rules that are not adpated to the individual, I understand why they have them. Being on the other end and fixing the errors - or trying to - and consulting with owners... I understand the reasoning many rescues have though I do not agree with the extent with what they do. Again, most rescues here would not adopt to me. I left the last rescue due to politics. I felt I could do more for rescues overall by offering free and discounted services to help make dogs placable faater and get into new homes to help prevent issues that may arise over the first months. Pathetically, very few rescues have taken me up on my offers!!! But breeders and rescues are the ones responsible for placing the dogs. On the other hand, I have seen superb famiies passed up because rescues would not adapt. I mean military homes who have proven they have never left a dog behind regardless of where they moved over the past decades. Parents who are exceptional homes, knew what they could or not handle, at home mom with a very well behaved child passed up because child was under six. But going back - who is ultimately responsible for placing a dog in a home? Not the adopter. One of the worst excuses I ever heard from a good breeder for placing a dog in a bozo home was "They could have gone elsewhere but at least I know they are getting a healthy, quality pup." Uh, yeahhhhh... And the dog is now a mess, pushing dangerous, not a dog I would rehome at all but probably euthanize. Saying no is the responsibility of the person placing the dog. I think some breeders need a bit more education in how to talk with/listen to owners. Many do a good job but many more do not. As I tell breeders who say they placed a dog to prevent someone from going to a pet store though they questioned the home, "At least it would not have been YOUR dog in this situation." I am currently working on a couple articles regarding reading between the lines - asking deeper/different questions and placing dogs with the elderly and parents with children (safer ways for them and the dog). The importance of better follow up, etc. Very controversial but needs to be done. But being on both sides of the triangle - family who breeds, rescue/shelter volunteer (former), trainer/behavioral consultant, I think I get a different view that some do not. I just wish I could get magazines that reach more breeders in different breeds to pick them up (ala AKC Gazette or UKC Bloodlines). But at least I am reaching breeders in a few breeds.  Post a Response

I so love my typing skills - "breeders/responsibility" should be breeder/rescue nm Posted by Karen on April 4, 2008, 8:05 am, in reply to "Yes and no - devil's advocate here..." 76.21.226.117 nm  Post a Response

Re: Yes and no - devil's advocate here... Posted by Jill B on April 4, 2008, 9:43 am, in reply to "Yes and no - devil's advocate here..." 71.255.190.63 No surprise this is a great post. Sadly there are no easy answers and definitely a need for improvement all around especially with the prospective buyer's responsibility to be honest with themselves and the adopter. It hits close to home for me because years back I had a Tosa breeder try to convince me to take a male puppy when he knew I had a 3 yo male Akita and that they would be house dogs. His advice: "if they are raised together they will be fine". Forutnately I knew this wouldn't be the type of situation I could deal with and found a female pup. Have you tried submitting your articles to veterinary/vet tech magazines? As always thank you and I look forward to your future articles.  Post a Response

Re: Its not the breeders fault so many turn in dogs for the wrong reasons Posted by Sara R on April 4, 2008, 12:59 pm, in reply to "Re: Its not the breeders fault so many turn in dogs for the wrong reasons" 65.114.202.254 Minion??? I just don't see as much fault in Cath as you do... simple as that... I'm by no means doign no one's bidding...I just find that Cath and I are similar in ideals and activities as far as rescue goes but you seem to be taking all of Cath's posts very personally when I beleive that is not the point... There is an AR machine and even just a LITTLE bit of support is feuling them along... I have no idea if you fit that bill but you are argueing against that thought process which is damaging to people on the other side of AR issues...that other side happens to be responsible breeders who usually end up doing MORE to curb the "problem" of homeless dogs and cats by not only producing better animals than the puppy mill who's to blame for the problem and placing animals better than at least 75% of rescues out there. We're all essentially on the same side...yet you're fighting tooth and nail to poke holes in Cath's credibility as a knowledgeable person when it comes to animal owners rights... Her information often helps people head off laws that only hurt responsible pet owners etc... What she knows and contributes is definately needed...even if you don't like her opnionated in your face attitude... We're all on the same side so I post in hopes of making that a little more obvious.  Post a Response

"Breeders are only a small part of the big problem. " Posted by cath on April 4, 2008, 3:01 pm, in reply to "Re: Its entering the realm of the ridiculous" 205.212.76.224 And no one's denying there is a big problem. I recently saw a very nice Boxer someone dumped because they couldn't handle it. They only had it for 3 months and it was less than a year old. They'd taken the time to import it and it was a very nice looking Boxer (no smashed in face) but they didn't take the time to train it. All that dog needed was some direction. Several of us handled the dog with no problem (and we're not experts by any means) and she was very friendly. There are so many cases like this and the ones that are so quick to dump dogs often just turn around and get another one.  Post a Response

I have had 3 Bullmastiffs Posted by Tracey on April 12, 2008, 7:20 am, in reply to "guarddogs" 209.47.31.7 only one could have done SchH(low level/club trials) and by no means are they easy to train. If you want easy maybe a Shepherd breed would be a better choice? They were bred to work WITH their handler..  Post a Response

Re: guarddogs Posted by JD on April 30, 2008, 7:16 am, in reply to "guarddogs" 74.78.141.105 Pls tell us of your choice one day so we can see if we did indeed help  Post a Response

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