[ Molosser Talk The Original ]

Thank you for posting to the BEST Molosser site on the net. Have a picture to share?
Please post to the Molosser gallery linked above the board.
. Who knows it may be out next dog on top.

Help!--Not about your breed though Posted by Poodle Girl on March 12, 2008, 12:54 am 76.105.228.65 I found this forum by accident a couple of weeks ago. I don't have the kind of dogs you do, but you seem like a knowledgeable crowd and I hope you won't mind my posting a question here. I have 2 standard poodles, a 3-year-old female and a 4-year-old male, both neutered. I've had the female since she was a puppy, and other than being a terrible sneak food thief she's an absolute sweetheart. She dominates the male, who won't even bother to try to get a drink of water until she's left the bowl. I got the male as a rescue dog about 6 months ago. Although he seems essentially good-natured, he's sometimes aggressive, and I'm considering returning him to the rescue people. Examples: A couple of weeks ago he had an ear infection. He growled and snapped at me when I first tried to put medicine into his ears. I muzzled and restrained him and he has calmed down about his treatments, but I still feel like I have to muzzle and restrain him for treatments. And he's nasty about having his nails clipped and his feet shaved--another occasion for muzzling and restraint. Last week I started both dogs with a very experienced and highly regarded trainer, in large part to get a handle on the male's aggressive behavior. (It would be nice to stop the female's food thievery, too.) The trainer worked with us and with the dogs, and sent us home with some routines that have been very effective even over these few days. However, yesterday my adult daughter and the male got into a ruckus, and he bit her. He wasn't playing, either. She was working with him this morning, and he went for her again, though he didn't manage to bite her this time. In neither instance did my daughter let the dog back her down, and she eventually got control of him. But we all are shaken. I called the trainer and asked for his advice. He said that, while it might take a few weeks, we certainly can get control of the animal, he's seen much worse, etc. What would you advise? Is this an example of trainer machismo, or should we work with the dog? Your thoughts?  Post a Response

Re: Help!--Not about your breed though Posted by Karen on March 12, 2008, 6:52 am, in reply to "Help!--Not about your breed though" 76.21.226.117 It all depends on what you have for time and it could be trainer machismo - goodness knows I have seen enough of it as well as the trouble it can cause. You have not stated how the trainer recommended working with the aggression. I find many general trainers (even highly regarded ones) are often some of the worst when it comes to aggression. A trainer sees something works (often just short term) so they use it. A behavioral consultant or behaviorist should know the how and whys something works and why to use or avoid it. I am really pressed for time this morning, my son has to be at school almost an hour early for a club on Wednesdays and as soon as hubby gets out of shower, I have to get in and get my other child up and out. SOOOO! What did the trainer tell you to do in regards to the aggression? Often we are told to respond in aggressive ways which short term may show signs of helping but long term (of even faster) escalate things. A lot of aggression comes from confusion and less dominant behavior. A dog who is comfortable in his position in the home will rarely act out. It does not matter if the dog it top of bottom, there will be fewer actions that may be called dominant. A dog who is not comfortable will react. There is a difference in behavior from a dog who is confused and trying to take control and a dog who is confident and trying to take control of a situation - the confident dog is far more deliberate and steady in what he does. Some dogs are just hardwired for undesired temperament traits and there is not much behavior modification can do in a dog who has a strong predisposition to these behaviors. So first, I have to know WHAT IS THE TRAINER TELLING YOU TO DO IN MANAGING THE DOG AND TRAINING. If the trainer is using things that can escalate the situation and challenge teh dog back, then yes, I can see how this would have happened - I have seen it happen many times - and I would find someone else if you feel you want to attempt to see if the dog can come about. If not, then put the dog down. But read these, I must get off line now, they will give you an idea of what I am talking about. You can also email me if you need to through http://www.WestWindDogTraining.com Go here and read http://www.westwinddogtraining.com/html/training_and_behavior.html They Are Not Out To Take Over the World: dispelling general myths of the dominant dog Is he trying to take control or is he trying to alleviate confusion? Nature and Nurture: a look at temperament in dogs Is it all genes, how we manage our dogs are a combination of both? Published in Sheltie International, 2003. Evaluating Temperament Testing When asked to temperament test a dog, am I really determining temperament or just the behavior at that point in time? Finding an Obedience Program Next to you and your vet, a good trainer or behavioral consultant will be a great asset in the life of a dog. However, a lesser trainer may cause more harm than good in the long run.  Post a Response

Re: Help!--Not about your breed though Posted by Poodle Girl on March 13, 2008, 12:08 am, in reply to "Re: Help!--Not about your breed though" 76.105.228.65 Thank you for the response this morning. You sound very busy! Here's an update. My daughter that was bitten also has a dog and has been using the same trainer I use. She's been training with this guy a few weeks longer than I have, and so he's had a chance to observe her. His skill impresses me more as I watch him, because he's able to handle dogs AND people. My daughter had told him about the incident with my dog, and he was able to be relatively tactful but also to convey what I also had perceived--that she was partially responsible for provoking the bite, and needs better techniques to deal with him. He asked her to come to our session, and he spent quite a bit of time showing all of us some exercises to get the dog under better control. None of them involves sitting on the dog or rolling it over or such; it's all calm, positive reinforcement of desired behavior, and equally calm corrections on the leash for undesirable behavior. He also suggested an addition to the daily exercise I give them; she's to take the dog out for an additional walk each day. (They're fairly well-behaved on walks.) So, generally he's prescribing some better ways for her to assume leadership. Work the dog calmly, correct it calmly when necessary, and it will learn to do what you want it to. I once again brought up the nastiness at feet and ear cleaning time. The trainer reassured me that as we get the boy calmed down, he'll accept being fussed with. He'd better! He's a poodle for petessakes. Someone's always going to be after his ears and his feet. (He is a rescue dog, and part of the reason for the rescue was that he had been neglected and hadn't been groomed for a couple of years.) Anyway, this trainer's methods seem effective, and the dogs are noticeably calmer the more we work with them. So--assuming no further incidents--I'm willing to give it some more time, as I can handle the dog reasonably well and my daughter has some better techniques for doing so herself. What's more, she is noticeably calmer and more confident with the dog than she was when the incidents first occurred. I appreciate your thoughts and your time. I'll check in once in awhile to let you know how it goes.  Post a Response

Re: Help!--Not about your breed though Posted by Karen on March 13, 2008, 6:34 am, in reply to "Re: Help!--Not about your breed though" 76.21.226.117 Corrections... In a dog with issues, physical leash corrections can cause the dog to explode. Effective looking does not mean proper. Remember, many trainers use things only because they appear to work even if they are working for the WRONG reasons. Let me give you an example, my development from a general trainer to someone dealing with behavior came many years ago when I watched one of my mentors, a very well respected trainer (TRAINER) get mauled twice in one summer. One was a dog who was an out of control goofball. She knew how to time corrections and such but this dog got frustrated and was not being taught or desensitized to the environment. He was being made to stop through quick corrections. This is not learning though the dog APPEARED to improve. He was not, he was frustrating. Evetually, his frustration exploded and he nailed the trainer badly enough to send her to the hospital. The second dog that summer was low confidence and balking on the lead. She gave one correction and the dog panicked (Flight or Fight and the dog could not run). The dog nailed her and yup, another trip to the hospital. There is a difference between a dog learning to hold behaviors until he can no longer handle the stress and then exploding and a dog truly learning to tolerate things. You cannot manage a dog with no tolerance by corrections which can cause a seeming improvement but in actuality, you are creating a time bomb. Now, fussing over him may NOT create a dog who will tolerante handling. It could stress him out even more to the point where he will learn to mask what he is feeling until he explodes. Generally when a dog explodes due to improper working, it is in a BIG way and someone may get hurt. Sounds like you are working with a generic trainer who is NOT desensitizing a dog but FORCING (and even minor physical corrections are still a form of force no matter what follows and how the trainer is behaving when he does it - it is still force) and totally inappropriate for a dog that has the kinds of issues your dog sounds to have. I would find someone else to work with this dog who knows how to desensitize and build confidence without using physical corrections. Also someone willing to work with your vet and discuss the possibility of anxiety reducing meds because animals who are under chronic stress can undergo chemical imbalances over time. If the dog has an imbalance then all the training in the world will be less effective. Correction based training with a dog who has severe issues can be the worst thing to do as this does not show who is in control in a sane manner. In dogs, they try to avoid phsyical and when they engage physically it is with the instinctive knowledge that it could go to a fight. Humans are NOT willing to go to the fight. We challenge physically, them back down, confuse the dog more. The dog is under more stress, etc. I prefer a well applied NILIF program as I already gave you links for as a way to gain control. In charge means you control the environment and not physically challenge a dog already in a heightened state of stress. I would go to http://www.k9aggression.com and read. I fear the trainer you are using is inappropriate and the dog is becoming a time bomb waiting to explode. Get someone else and fast. Someone who knows how to desensitize, get control without even minor appearing threats and who understands dog aggression. From what you said, your trainer understands controlling or appears to but he has no idea how to handle dog aggression, try and determine the type of aggression, etc. Try http://www.IAABC.org and http://www.APDT.com  Post a Response

The links - I forgot them in my first reply Posted by Karen on March 13, 2008, 7:20 am, in reply to "Re: Help!--Not about your breed though" 76.21.226.117 I am giving these not to substitute working with a good trainer or behaviorist but to show you what someone should be doing as opposed to what the trainer is doing) http://www.goof.com/~pmurphy/NILIF.html (this is done by a behaviorist and should not be attempted alone) http://k9deb.com/nilif.htm http://www.greyhoundlist.org/nothing_is_free.htm http://www.dogguide.net/nilif.php these better build control, confidence that the dog has that you can lead in a way less threatening to him, etc. Now, some dogs just cannot be brought about no matter what is done. If you want to work with him, find someone else.  Post a Response

Re: Help!--Not about your breed though Posted by Poodle Girl on March 13, 2008, 3:43 pm, in reply to "Re: Help!--Not about your breed though" 76.105.228.65 Karen, thanks. The first thing I did was to increase my personal liability insurance coverage. I have an appointment with a canine behaviorist early next week.  Post a Response

Re: Help!--Not about your breed though Posted by Karen on March 13, 2008, 4:00 pm, in reply to "Re: Help!--Not about your breed though" 76.21.226.117 Please let me know how it goes!!! A few years back I dealt with such a severe case that I could only recommend putting the dog down. The owners had tried generic trainers and all said the same thing - and one insisted on a prong collar. The dog developed such fears about the humans he lived with that the dog started to react before anything was done and drive the humans away before they could do anything. Had they sought someone who knew what to try when the dog was younger, there was a chance the outcome could have been different. But they loved the dog and even after hours of counselling about the dog and the fact they could lose thier home if he nailed one more person (severe case of fear aggression worsened by poor training methods for the dog). I never heard back if they did or not. I cna only hope they did as this dog was well on his way to killing someone and he was barely a year and a half.  Post a Response

Re: Help!--Not about your breed though Posted by Tracey on March 13, 2008, 4:13 pm, in reply to "Re: Help!--Not about your breed though" 209.47.31.5 This quote... He's a poodle for petessakes... is part of the problem right there. He is a DOG. Dogs do not know what breed they are and act like dogs do, that can include biting. Dogs need to be treated as dogs! I am not a fan of dog behaviorists. I have worked with dogs that have been labelled untrainable, too aggressive by behaviorists and other trainers(purely positive folks)...and all they needed was someone to take charge of them. Once they knew their place, the aggression was gone. Dogs are happy to be under us. Once you show them you are boss they will accept it. It is usually quickly fixed once you understand how to properly deal with the dog. I can't help you online unforunately, just too complicated, go to a trainer who has dealt with aggressive dogs and let him show you what to do. And if you are ever afraid of your dog, you have to never show it to the animal. You will never gain control over a dog if you show it you are afraid. I work at a shelter and I see many dogs turned in due to a person not willing to do what is neccessary, either due to fear or due to not wanting to harm their furbaby.. most of these dogs are an easy fix with some firm obedience training. Tracey  Post a Response

Re: Help!--Not about your breed though Posted by Sara R on March 13, 2008, 4:41 pm, in reply to "Re: Help!--Not about your breed though" 65.114.202.254 Tracey, To me there's a BIG difference between behaviorists and trainers. I find that purely positive people tend to call themselves "behaviorists" when in fact they are trainers who use "positive" methods for training. Trainers should be used for OB and training sport etc... For me when I see a dog who is having a behavioral issue that isn't part of what you'd see in Basic OB class etc... that occurs daily and as a result of a behavior by the handler towards the dog etc... for the latter I would consider taking a dog to a behaviorist, a true behaviorist who can understand what they're looking at. Not who's looking at it in a "control" issue and "making" a dog do an unnatural behavior using treats or corrections. The two, trainers and behaviorists are both looking at different ends of the spectrum. I never really realized this till I read the first Ceasar Milan book and I was able to understand the difference. Ceasar is not training a dog on his show...he's working to change a dog's behavior and most often he's also working to change a human's behavior which in reality is the main cause of the dog's behavior. All of which are natural behaviors and moulding the handling of a dog 24/7 to change the behavior and "emotions" of the dog. I don't like to see people dislike one or the other because to me, they are comparing apples to oranges. Granted I use the term Trainer at times when I should probably use the term behaviorist but I see a difference in the two and I often see that difference being the cause of bad outcomes that give others a bad impression of one or the other. Karen, Your advice is great...and after reading the above and assuming you've seen Ceasar Milan work with dogs. I'm curious about your thoughts about him as a behaviorists only. NOT about the show etc...(I'm sure that makes sense to you)... I'm curious as I respect your knowledge and experience. Sara  Post a Response

Re: Help!--Not about your breed though Posted by Karen on March 13, 2008, 6:20 pm, in reply to "Re: Help!--Not about your breed though" 76.21.226.117 He is a mediocre trainer who glosses over some harsh things (ear pinches and shock collars) and uses saturation and suppression as opposed to desensitizing and adapting. I have seen him stuff before Oprah made him famous - then dumped him. I liked what I saw years ago but then again, I was just a trainer and if something looked to work, learned it - but did not know the hows and whys. Once I learned them, I saw him in a far different light. One episode I remember was a long haired pup and a kitten. The pup kept going after the kitten and stop and scream. Well, you never saw it but he put a shock collar on the pup under the long fur. When pup went to the kitten, pup got nailed. When pup stopped going after the kitten and kitten approached the shaking pup, pup got nailed. Tell me what is this teaching a pup about cats? He kept telling the owner he was teaching pup not to go after the kit. Another big thing of his is that "little touch" to the back of the ear to get attention. This is a glossed ear pinch which is painful! Also what does it teach? Hands near my head will hurt - now what if dog gets an ear infection? Ear pinches were used (and some still do use them) to force a dog to open his mouth to take a dumbell - called forced retrieving. Dog took it, pain stopped. Many years ago, I ruined a dog for advanced obed competition this way. But no one was teaching other ways in my area. Milan also has an attitude. His methods are harsh, though he glosses it over and makes it look safer and humane but many of the things he does creates stress. I have rehabilitated many dogs the past few years that came out of programs who touted the Milan way. Immediate improvement but lomg term issues. I got the long term issues. Ugh! I prefer Victoria Stillwell - she is a good behaviorist who does understand dogs. She is firm, no nonsense but fair with what she does an expects. She also will state when she feels a dog is past hope and tell owners that no matter what they do and how far the dog comes, some dogs are never going to be trustworthy. Milan seems to come off as "dog is cured" and gives owners a false sense of hope. He also pushes exhausted dogs behave - yes and no... Dogs properly having their energy needs met and who are not confused are better behaved. And some exercise can cause behavioral issues as well. Well, I have to go get ready for a class tonight and I am running a low grade fever. Not enough to put me on my back but I ache like I have been working out for hours and am touch sensitive.  Post a Response

Re: Help!--Not about your breed though Posted by Sara R on March 14, 2008, 11:54 am, in reply to "Re: Help!--Not about your breed though" 65.114.202.254 Take care of yourself Karen. I saw Victoria Stillwell only once and I actually did like what she was doing and how she was communicating as opposed to Milan. I do see where he stresses but I think for some dogs he's good... He did great with a BB that I saw, that was a BB issue though where a boerboel will never be trustworthy if your the owner/handler expects him/her not to be...fearfull handling of a BB is not usually going to get results other than some fear aggression and major confusion so the taking charge that Milan managed did really good for the dog... But then the dog didn't "require" as much stress or rough handling as some of them out there. I've heard people call Milan a bully but I stop short of that only because I haven't seen what you talked about with ear pinching etc... I had to resort to it once...with Ozzy...my finger was stuck in his collar and he was hopping around...broken finger or pinch...I opted for pinch and it just so happened that my hand landed on his ear... He has no issues with touching his ears that he didn't have when we got him and he actually benefited because I can now put him in a down quickly even if he's over excited. He was a rescue and we got him at 9 mos. with no manners and he's just over two now standing, at last measurement, at 38"...I promise this is a true measurement I did it at least 4-5 times to make sure I wasn't seeing things. I'll have to look more at Victoria Stillwell...  Post a Response

Re: Help!--Not about your breed though Posted by Karen on March 14, 2008, 12:28 pm, in reply to "Re: Help!--Not about your breed though" 76.21.226.117 Remember a good trainer will adapt the program to the needs of the individual dog. Milan has come under a lot of fire from behaviorists who are not super touchy feely but realistic. When Milan's show was going to be aired, many were sent copies for review. All, to my knowledge, sent letters back begging NG not to show the series. A friend of mine sent me a copy of a letter. I use what works best for the dog but remember, things can be glossed over. I do agree with him that you have to be a confident owner and meet the physical needs of your dog. I just disagree with many of his methods to get immediate results. Have you noticed an increase in warnings on his show? THere is a reason...  Post a Response

Re: Help!--Not about your breed though Posted by Sara R on March 14, 2008, 1:26 pm, in reply to "Re: Help!--Not about your breed though" 65.114.202.254 Yah I did notice the increase in warnings... interesting...I wondered if there had been previous problems. It's been awhile that it's been on and I was wondering why there aren't updates on ALL the dogs he's worked with at least online if not a whole show or two devoted to that.  Post a Response

Re: Help!--Not about your breed though Posted by Karen on March 14, 2008, 2:54 pm, in reply to "Re: Help!--Not about your breed though" 76.21.226.117 All I can say is there is probably a reason why there are no follow ups from my understanding and that is all I will say. Oooops... Nope, just that I have cleaned up dogs who have been saturated or suppressed, etc... Not fun... Back to pain... Dang fever is going up! Ugh!  Post a Response

     «Back to thread

Please see bottom of board for rules.