Leavitt Bulldog Association

[ Leavitt Bulldog Association ]

Missing Teeth

Posted by DL on November 4, 2009, 11:05 am
Creator

I believe our Standard should allow P1 teeth to be missing and any more teeth than these 4 missing would be a Serious Fault. There would be a Breeding Guideline stating that dogs missing teeth should be bred only to dogs with all their teeth. This is certainly a problem but not a crippling one. We need to breed away from it. This puts the responsibility on our breeders and is based on the honor system.

I have found major differences in the way Europeans and Americans look at breeding selection criteria and other matters like good sportsmanship. Americans have an independent streak and they bridle at any outside control. Imposing more controls here would lead to losing breeders and bloodlines that we can't afford to lose now. Europeans have a history of breeding selection inspections to improve breeds. That said, I was shocked when I was talking about this matter with a big dog breeder in Holland and he said vet checks won't work because "I can go in the room next door and come back with a signed" forgery. The Continental Bulldog Club controls this danger by having one trusted vet do all their examinations.

I am open to your comments on language for the Standard and now is your chance to give your opinion, so have at it.

In the 90 OEB's I judged in Holland there was one LB with a wry jaw. I didn't place the female and I told the owner the dog should not be bred.

DL

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Re: Missing Teeth

Posted by ARNO on November 6, 2009, 8:51 am, in reply to "Missing Teeth"
77.198.235.36

Yes, I confirm and follow the David's instructions.
It was an hard decision to take. But dog come first.
http://oldeenglishfrance.e-monsite.com/

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Re: Missing Teeth

Posted by Mathias on November 5, 2009, 3:07 pm, in reply to "Missing Teeth"
188.103.31.152

David,

do you know that here in germany most of the big clubs for working dogs register the results of X-raying for HD/ED within the pedigrees?

I think it could be a great supplement for the breed if the LBA would do something like that.

If you have one central registry where all of the results are written down you would get a good overview about the heredity of HD, ED and missing teeth for example.

And if you write it into the pedigree (official confirmed) every breeder can get all the information he needs with one view. And after a few generations you have an exact information database about all the main health problems. So you can select, which lines should be bred and which lines better not.

Look at the continental program here in europe - it's exactly what they are doing.

Mathias.
Life without Bulldog is stupid.

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Pedigree/hip x-ray

Posted by Laure on November 6, 2009, 3:48 am, in reply to "Re: Missing Teeth"
83.76.11.46

Hi Mathias,

I just want to add that it's common for many breeds and I think the FCI does it.
In my rottweiler pedigree, the rate of the hip x-ray was written for all dogs (at least those who were x-rayed).

I think it's a nice idea... if not to complicated to make it.

Laure

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Re: Pedigree/hip x-ray

Posted by Mathias on November 6, 2009, 1:55 pm, in reply to "Pedigree/hip x-ray"
88.75.58.65

Why should it be complicated?
Every great association is doin' that.
It simple - every breeder has to send the results of his dogs to the association. And if the breeder won't do that - he can't get papers for the offspring.

I think it would be a great idea, maybe it is an option for the LBA - we'll see in the future.

Mathias.
Life without Bulldog is stupid.

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Breeding rules

Posted by Laure on November 5, 2009, 4:35 am, in reply to "Missing Teeth"
81.62.234.234

Thanks David for your feedback and comments on European/american breeding differences.

I'm not breeding but I know many breeders and learned a lot about breeding these last 12 years.

In Switzerland, we have really only few breeders because it's really hard breeding due to the rules. These guidelines are given by the breed club, but most of them are similar:
Health:
- hip/elbow dysplasia
- teeth check
- entropion/ectropion
- skeleton problem
- complete vet check

Temperament: test done according to the breed. For exemple, herding breed are tested on sheeps.

Whelping: the mother and puppies have to be in their own room (not living room or kitchen) with direct access to the outside. There are also specific guidelines for the size for the room!

Here are the continental club rules:
http://www.continental-bulldog.ch/zuchtreglement.htm
http://www.continental-bulldog.ch/reglement_elevage.htm

It's in german and second link is in french but you might use an automatic translator.

In Germany, for the american bulldog, they test for hip/elbow dysplasia, cardiac echo, NCL, spondylosis. Most of the dogs are temperament tested or working dogs.

In my opinion, few missing teeth is ok, if you breed it with a dog with all teeth. Wry jaw is a serious fault.
Same with hip... a dog with "good" hips (C) should be bred with a dog with "excellent" hips (A).
I think there are faults that are more important than others!!! If you sell a dog with dysplasia, wry jaw, spondylosis or OCD, it is more problematic for this dog (pain, problems to walk or eat, etc), than a dog with 4 missing teeth or longer coat (that only causes problems for shows!).
That leads to the breeder quality and pet quality. But most of LB breeders are hobby breeders, meaning that some of them are not event knowing the problems that have their dogs!
I remember 10 years ago, breeders were saying that LB's dont have hip dyplasia (only mine! lol)... of course, none was doing x-ray! I'm glad to see today that all breeding dogs are x-rayed.
Genetic is very complicated and multifactorial. It takes generations to improve breed but with 2-3 generations, you can already see improvement if the work is done correctly.

On my 4 dogs (4 different breeds), I had 1 with hip and elbow dysplasia (LB), and 2 with spondylosis (AB and rottweiler), and one dog with OCD (AB). Spondylosis is not only hereditary. The only way to know about it is to make the x-ray when the dog is young (on my dogs, they were 9 and 10 years old!).
For Hudson, and my next LB's, I'll do hip AND elbow dysplasia, but also spondylosis (back x-ray).
I know tests cost money, but when you consider you'll breed your female 2-3 times, and your male as many as he can, you can spend the price of one puppy in tests (only my opinion!).

And yes, creating your lineage/breeding foundation cost a lot of money... and takes time. But when you're successfull it's so rewarding!

Thanks for reading.

Laure

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Continental Bulldogs rules

Posted by Freedombulls on November 6, 2009, 3:04 am, in reply to "Breeding rules"
85.144.149.229

Hi everyone

We think the Continental Bulldogs breeding criteria is the way to go for the Leavitt.
We only think different on one small issue we think we have to X-ray the teeth as well.

Gr Barry and Cindy

Proud member of the L.B.A.E
http://www.leavittbulldogassociationeurope.com/

Link: Freedombulls

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Re: Continental Bulldogs rules

Posted by unitedbulls on November 6, 2009, 1:39 pm, in reply to "Continental Bulldogs rules"
Unitedbulls

you know that they have 12 different bloodlines and not related....to each other....

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Re: Continental Bulldogs rules

Posted by DL on November 6, 2009, 4:59 pm, in reply to "Re: Continental Bulldogs rules"
Creator

Sita,
I saw the records and it is 8 lines for the Contie.

But the Boon Bull could have 12.

DL

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Re: Continental Bulldogs rules

Posted by unitedbulls on November 7, 2009, 8:00 am, in reply to "Re: Continental Bulldogs rules"
Unitedbulls

You so funny David than its 8 and 2 lines as reserve.... i don't want a Boon bulldog only want healthy bulldogges and the LB we have in Europe we don't have enought...

I think you don't see what i want for YOUR BREED...but it is ok i will not helping any one any more we will see it the SHOW RING...

BYE BYE

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Re: Continental Bulldogs rules

Posted by ARNO on November 6, 2009, 8:46 am, in reply to "Continental Bulldogs rules"
77.198.235.36

I agree with that
http://oldeenglishfrance.e-monsite.com/

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Excellent Post!!!

Posted by Marie on November 5, 2009, 7:05 am, in reply to "Breeding rules"
Mergenthaler Bulldogs

Excellent Post Laure!! Thank you for sharing your thoughts! The LBA is all about improving Leavitt Bulldogs all around, not just by looks. That is why I joined the LBA. If we keep doing what we are doing by health screening, temperament testing and X-Raying ALL of our dogs, I really believe we will be successful in achieving the healthiest bulldog out there. Shoot I believe that now, but that is JMO.
Life is to good to be bothered by ignorant people.

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Re: Excellent Post!!!

Posted by unitedbulls on November 5, 2009, 7:32 am, in reply to "Excellent Post!!!"
Unitedbulls

That is great and now for europe????
i want to know what we will do in Europe???

What is the breeding plan??? not 1 0r 2 generation's??? we don't have enough breeding stock so....

unitedbulls

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Plan for Europe

Posted by DL on November 5, 2009, 10:16 am, in reply to "Re: Excellent Post!!!"
Creator

I would like to see a program of breeding selection established for Europe. It would be similar to the Contie Bulldog program. If our European breeders want this, I would very much like to help develop language for their comments and approval. I will not push this down your throats but will support you in enacting good regulations.

DL

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Re: Plan for Europe

Posted by unitedbulls on November 5, 2009, 1:53 pm, in reply to "Plan for Europe"
Unitedbulls

Of course we want that...i have a continantal bulldog male

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Post scriptum

Posted by Laure on November 5, 2009, 8:22 am, in reply to "Re: Excellent Post!!!"
62.203.219.162

Every breeder has his own taste and preferences.

I'm actually looking for a female, but still looking to find the right parents (and the right pedigree).
I know I'll breed for the stafford look (sorry Sita!lol): high on legs, functional body, straight back line, good back leg angulation. For the head, I'm looking for a medium lenght, not to much underbite, and open nostril.

I will take me probably 10 to 20 years to be happy of the selection I'd like to do because I keep all my dogs (even if I don't breed them) and I can only have 2-3 dogs at the same time.

Sita, even if you and I don't share the same physical ideal, I'm sure we both agree on health.

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Re: Post scriptum

Posted by unitedbulls on November 5, 2009, 1:59 pm, in reply to "Post scriptum"
Unitedbulls

That is correct it does not matter what kind of leavitt you like but it must be Healthy, I like the more bulliesr leavitt's but with a nice body structere.... your dog Hudson is it i think is looking very good to me...

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Re: Excellent Post!!!

Posted by Laure on November 5, 2009, 8:13 am, in reply to "Re: Excellent Post!!!"
62.203.219.162

So what? We need to import dogs and use the outcross programm, and why not (Mr Leavitt?) open the registry to LB "looking like" dogs.

For exemple, the show that took place in Holland, if we can make it each year, as Mr Leavitt is in Europe, we could take a week end, or one day to make a "breeding selection day" or conformation and temperament test.
There are dogs that are not related to the original breeding stock, but that show all the quality required in the standard.
That means that the LBA has to open the registry (but under several conditions) for some years (5 or 10) and then, when there are enough unrelated lines, the LBA can close it again.
That's a common way to rarebreeds and I think that's an option we have to look out.

Open discussion... let me know what you think.

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Re: Excellent Post!!!

Posted by unitedbulls on November 5, 2009, 2:03 pm, in reply to "Re: Excellent Post!!!"
Unitedbulls

I'm with you......

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Here's Why

Posted by DL on November 5, 2009, 10:06 am, in reply to "Re: Excellent Post!!!"
Creator

For those of you who don�t know her, Laure is a very good trainer and has my respect.

I feel that outcrosses are necessary for genetic health only a few times every 5 years. Opening the studbook is dangerous for a few reasons.

First let�s look at the big genetic problems all Bulldogs face; hip dysplasia, demodex mange and epilepsy. All of these can kill and cripple, unlike missing teeth. They may not show themselves till after a dog is mature and has been bred. At this time there is no way to know if a dog carries epilepsy or a predisposition to demodex until onset. I can see no reason to risk introduction of problems since there is no assurance of improving genetic health, but in fact the opposite is true. The only reason to throw open the studbook would be to help owners of crossbred dogs with marketing, as the LB name has sales advantages in Europe. I�m not saying don�t register these Bulldogs, just call them what they are called here; Olde English Bulldogge, but Sita and An resist that idea for some reason.

My only concern is health, not expanding bulk numbers of LB�s.

My central belief is there are too many dogs bred.

I don�t want to empire build and introduce lots of dogs that can possess hidden defects to up our numbers. I�d rather have a small project with a higher percentage of my original blood.

DL

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Re: Here's Why

Posted by unitedbulls on November 6, 2009, 6:05 am, in reply to "Here's Why"
Unitedbulls

but Sita and An resist that idea for some reason???????

What do you mean?????? with this???

The LB name has sales advantages in Europe????

Again my outcross what we call old english bulldogges sall mutch better than 100% LB so that is not treu...

My only concern is health, not expanding bulk numbers of LB�s?????

We can not breed alot of leavitt's because there is not a male for them....and that is the problem here in europe the LB's are not healthy sorry to say this....(hip's,demodex,out of elbow,weak pastrens,ED,epelepsy,entropion enz enz)

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Answer

Posted by DL on November 6, 2009, 1:36 pm, in reply to "Re: Here's Why"
Creator

The LB name has sales advantages in Europe????

If this were not true, why didn't the EKC proposal to register crossbred dogs call them OEB?

DL

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Re: Answer

Posted by unitedbulls on November 6, 2009, 2:26 pm, in reply to "Answer"
Unitedbulls

Sorry i don't understand, i have nothing to do with the ekc outcross my oeb's they have ekc pedegree and my lb's lba papers so i don't understand it now...

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Re: Answer

Posted by DL on November 6, 2009, 5:10 pm, in reply to "Re: Answer"
Creator

LBF outcross programma proposal sent to R. Voss of EKC is what I'm talking about.

Never heard about it?

DL

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Re: Answer

Posted by unitedbulls on November 7, 2009, 8:03 am, in reply to "Re: Answer"
Unitedbulls

Never heard about that it was not me and I'm not in that breeding program this is the last time i tell you again my oeb's are EKC and my LBA dogges have LBA papers...

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Re: Here's Why

Posted by Mathias on November 5, 2009, 2:58 pm, in reply to "Here's Why"
188.103.31.152

David,

i agree with most of the things you've said. Especially your words about the genetic problems are absolutely right, there is no doubt.
But i think that the main reason for that problems is the small genetic base of the breed. If you look on the pedigrees of most of our dogs you can see, that most of them are closely related.
For me the only way to get that genetic base wider is an outcross program. Under supervision of the LBA it would be a very valuable supplement for the breed. I don't think we need to worry about to get additional serious health problems into the LB if there is a responsible supervision by the LBA. I think all the health problems you've described are already here. We only can try to select the best of breed for breeding. But... if you don't have a base which you can select from

You've said: there are too many dogs bred
I can't understand what you mean, sorry. We here in europe don't have many 100% LB's. And not all of the LB's we have are used for breeding. Only a few. If you do a responsible selection and if you want to use only the best you can only use a few. As Sita said before: We need help here in europe. If we don't get fresh blood we will have a big problem. That's one of the main reasons i think an outcross is absolutely necessary.

You've said: The only reason to throw open the studbook would be to help owners of crossbred dogs with marketing, as the LB name has sales advantages in Europe. I�m not saying don�t register these Bulldogs, just call them what they are called here; Olde English Bulldogge

David, i can't agree with that. Sorry to say that. Nobody want's to open the LBA-studbook for getting bigger sales, especially not An and Sita. As far as i know they want to register the outcrosses with the EKC, not with the LBA. And believe me, it's not easier to sell a dog with ekc-paperwork.
And by the way... what is about the outcross-dogs which are registered with the LBA today? Are they different? Are they better? I don't know.

Another thing: today here in europe most people already use the name Olde English Bulldogge. Most people around don't know the differences. Some people ask for the percentage of leavitt-blood in the dogs. But for the most uninvolved people the whole confusions around the Olde Bulldogs are only annoying. There are two associations in america, which one is the right one? And that's not enough, now there are two institutions in europe too. Again: which one is right one? Who can declares? And from a view of a puppy buyer: Who is the one with the truth?
If you are a breeder here in europe and you want to get bigger sales - just call your dogs OEB, nobody can understand the background and nobody cares.
The only people which are really interested to improve and protect the breed are a small group of breeders and enthusiasts.

And here is my central belief:
If our fantastic breed should have a future here in europe, there are two things which are most important:
First: We have to make the genetic base wider. Therefor are two options: We can import a lot of dogs (if we can find some really healthy and perfect ones which are unrelated to our dogs). Or we can start an outcross program. For me it would be best if such an outcross program would be done under supervision of the LBA.

And the second important thing: All involved people should do it together. Like a big family. At the moment we have no unity between all involved people. I thought we all are adult people. Why can't we all talk together like adults? We all want the same thing: a healthy LB. For me the perfect bulldog ever. But i can't close my eyes: the LB has some problems. And especially here in europe we have problems.
And I�m sure that we can't get a solution for those problems if we don't work together.

You have talked about the conti breeding program. And i'm sure - you know, that the continental bulldog is a big competitor for the LB here in europe. One of the reasons for the big success of the continental bulldog is, that all people which are involved are strictly organised in one big association. That's a fact. And i think, if we can't do it all together the future for the LB here in europe is not the best. Sorry, it just my opinion.

Mathias.

Life without Bulldog is stupid.

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Mathias- CB

Posted by Laure on November 6, 2009, 8:41 am, in reply to "Re: Here's Why"
83.76.40.153

You said:
"You have talked about the conti breeding program. And i'm sure - you know, that the continental bulldog is a big competitor for the LB here in europe. One of the reasons for the big success of the continental bulldog is, that all people which are involved are strictly organised in one big association."

I don't think there is any competition between LB and CB! Both follow their own way.
I don't want to see the LB becoming a popular breed and it's never going to happen. That might happen to the CB as they look for the FCI recognition.
In addition, Mrs Angern is choosing who she sells her dog to and if she doesn't like you or what you expect from a dog, she won't sell the dog. If you don't follow the rules, you don't get a conti.
And what you said is wrong, they have 2 clubs now: the swiss one (wich I'm part of) and a german club. Of course they work together and all the pedigrees come from Switzerland (the only country that recognise the CB).

The "success" is that the club is very hard, they don't mess with health (you have really strict criterieas) nor temperament. Mrs Angern sees all the puppies that are whelped in Switzerland!

BUT with all these rules, they still have many health problems in the CB... the same issues we have with LB's; when you subscribe to the swiss club, you pay an amount for the "health found research" for the CB. It's still a long way for both breeds. But one thing that is interesting: a friend of mine bought a CB and the breeder said that for swiss people, if you x-ray the dog, they give you money back for the x-ray cost. That way, the breeder know all the results of their offspring!

Laure

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Re: Mathias- CB

Posted by Mathias on November 6, 2009, 2:22 pm, in reply to "Mathias- CB"
88.75.180.45

Hi Laure,

most things you've said within this discussion i can agree with but some things...

I don't think there is any competition between LB and CB! Both follow their own way

I can't share your opinion. The last few month i've talked to a lot of people here in germany about the OEB, LB and CB. And finally most of the people i've talked to decided it's better to get a conti. Why? It's simple... nobody can understand the confusions around the OEB and LB. Most people wants a healthy, agile bulldog. And in that case the people decides to chose the conti because there are no confusions around that breed.

I'm with you when you say "I don't want to see the LB becoming a popular breed and it's never going to happen.". I don't want that too. But... if nobody want's to buy a puppy - what will happen to the breed?

And what you said is wrong, they have 2 clubs now: the swiss one (wich I'm part of) and a german club. Of course they work together and all the pedigrees come from Switzerland (the only country that recognise the CB).

Laure, of course i know that there are two clubs now. But at the end there is only one association which is making the rules, right? So i would not say i'm wrong. Only the swiss club makes the decisions, all the german club is doin' is directed from the switzerland. And i think that's the right way. One breed - one association - one set of rules.

Let me say one thing more:
But one thing that is interesting: a friend of mine bought a CB and the breeder said that for swiss people, if you x-ray the dog, they give you money back for the x-ray cost. That way, the breeder know all the results of their offspring!

I know that there are some breeders of other breeds (like rottweilers and GSD's) here in germany which are going the same way. Within the next two years we want to start our own breeding program (if all things going like we are hoping). And i can say today: Thats the way i want to go! If we have a litter one day we will give all puppy buyers a contract, where is written down that. Today I don't know exactly how to make it (it's still far away) but i'm sure we will go that way. I think it's the best way to get an exact database of your offspring.

Mathias.

Life without Bulldog is stupid.

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Re: Mathias- CB

Posted by Laure on November 10, 2009, 5:31 am, in reply to "Re: Mathias- CB"
62.203.220.94

I can't share your opinion. The last few month i've talked to a lot of people here in germany about the OEB, LB and CB. And finally most of the people i've talked to decided it's better to get a conti. Why? It's simple... nobody can understand the confusions around the OEB and LB. Most people wants a healthy, agile bulldog. And in that case the people decides to chose the conti because there are no confusions around that breed.

I'm with you when you say "I don't want to see the LB becoming a popular breed and it's never going to happen.". I don't want that too. But... if nobody want's to buy a puppy - what will happen to the breed?

People go to the continental because it's going to be a FCI breed and as you said, they have clear rules and breeding programm.
People breed OEB because it's easy: no rules!

As for the LB, there's a long way to go and work to do, AND there are specific rules.

The public doesn't make the difference an OEB, a CB, an LB or an RB. So don't worry, you'll always find people to buy a LB.
A friend of mine has now 2 LB's and doesn't know anything (or very little) about the breed history or differences with the other OEB's. She just loves her dogs.

Looking forward meeting you (because I'm sure we met in Holland but I cannot put a face on your name).

Laure

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Re: Mathias- CB

Posted by Mathias on November 10, 2009, 4:10 pm, in reply to "Re: Mathias- CB"
188.102.53.222

Hey Laure,

breeding without rules... sounds terrible for me. I think there must be clear and strict rules. One set rules for all the same. And i think that what we are far away from at the moment

Looking forward meeting you (because I'm sure we met in Holland but I cannot put a face on your name).

I think on the next show we will meet for sure. I'm absolutely sure we met in holland. I mean i was the one which was running into your camera a few times
But we had not a chance to talk, think next time will be better. And if you only want a face behind the name - just look on our website

Bye,

Mathias.

Olde Bulls Germany
Life without Bulldog is stupid.

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Title Rebates

Posted by DL on November 6, 2009, 5:15 pm, in reply to "Re: Mathias- CB"
Creator

Millenium Bulldogs gave large monetary rebates for working titles....

DL

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Pick wick King

Posted by unitedbulls on November 6, 2009, 1:46 pm, in reply to "Mathias- CB"
Unitedbulls

Pick Wick King from Imelda...

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Re: Mathias- CB

Posted by Jessica on November 6, 2009, 9:21 am, in reply to "Mathias- CB"
86.31.43.131 | Message modified by user LeavittUK November 6, 2009, 3:25 pm

That money back for the xray is an interesting idea - It is a good example of courage in your conviction.....

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Sorry bad idea!!!

Posted by Freedombulls on November 6, 2009, 9:38 am, in reply to "Re: Mathias- CB"
85.144.149.229

For us it was 650� (300� HD 350� ED)don`t think breeders will be happy to pay back that kind of money.

Gr Barry and Cindy
Proud member of the L.B.A.E
http://www.leavittbulldogassociationeurope.com/

Link: Freedombulls

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Re: Sorry bad idea!!!

Posted by Mathias on November 6, 2009, 3:44 pm, in reply to "Sorry bad idea!!!"
88.75.184.154

I can't believe that!!! 650 Euro???
Did you bought the doctor's office???
Wooaaahhh, what an expensive price!

We've done the X-rays for our big boy, for HD/ED both together we've paid a little less then 300 Euro. And we know, that this was very expensive (for germany). We can go to an other vet, there we have to pay around 200.

I never thought that it's so expensive to x-ray in holland, unbelievable.

Have you thought about to go on a trip to germany for x-raying your dogs?

Mathias.

Life without Bulldog is stupid.

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Re: Sorry bad idea!!!

Posted by Freedombulls on November 6, 2009, 4:06 pm, in reply to "Re: Sorry bad idea!!!"
85.144.149.229

Hi Mathias

These are prices around Amsterdam.
We did not knew if we travel a little in to the country side it could be much cheaper.
It is the same with vaccination puppy`s there is a difference for 8 puppy up till 300 euro`s
Seems we still learn everyday.

Gr Barry and Cindy
Proud member of the L.B.A.E
http://www.leavittbulldogassociationeurope.com/

Link: Freedombulls

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Re: Sorry bad idea!!!

Posted by Laure on November 7, 2009, 4:08 am, in reply to "Re: Sorry bad idea!!!"
83.77.44.140

I'm sure your vet is happy. As we say around here, you helped your vet in building a nice swimming pool.

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Price for x-ray

Posted by Laure on November 6, 2009, 11:13 am, in reply to "Sorry bad idea!!!"
83.76.40.153

My vet told me 400 swiss francs, that makes around 400$ and 260 euro for hip AND elbow dysplasia (including official lecture). For the back x-ray, it's 100 euro more (150$).

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Wow

Posted by Laure on November 6, 2009, 9:55 am, in reply to "Sorry bad idea!!!"
83.76.40.153

That's very expensive! I agree...

What about half?
I know that the price depends on the country AND the vet. In France, a friend of mine spend 200 euro for hips, including the official lecture.

Anyway, I'm not sure that's something we have to impose... but I think that's something to think about.
You can then include part of it in the pup price.

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Mathias

Posted by DL on November 5, 2009, 4:36 pm, in reply to "Re: Here's Why"
Creator

Sorry I'm short on time to respond to all your comments now but let me say a couple of things.

Here in the US there are way too many dogs bred and millions are killed in shelters annually.

I am against the outcross proposal brought to the EKC.. I'm sorry but that position won't change. I have learned the hard way this is a mistake.

As to getting along like adults, let me tell what happened leading up to the EKC proposal.
At the Sept. 27th show in Holland, someone who I thought was a friend came out of the ring and started yelling at high volume insults directed at me because I said her dog "had too much bone".

In 39 years of dog shows I've never witnessed such bad sportsmanship. Within days this same person went to the EKC with an outcross proposal. If there is no marketing advantage then why have my name on these outcross dogs??

I met a lot of wonderful people in Holland but I also saw some who's pastime is spreading negative information, both true and made up about other breeders. I saw people who really like to argue and fight. And I saw extreme arrogance from some without skill or experience. I have no time for them and hope the positive people can cooperate and I wish them all the best.

DL

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David...

Posted by Mathias on November 6, 2009, 1:50 pm, in reply to "Mathias"
94.223.83.99

...thanks for your words. It's great to talk about all the things this way. Some things are unbelievable for me.

Here in the US there are way too many dogs bred and millions are killed in shelters annually.

I can't (or won't) believe that. If it is like you said i think there are really a lot of things wrong on your side of the ocean

The rest of your words about that person at the ring... i don't know who it could be. I was there in holland on saturday and on sunday. Most people there were really enthusiastic, i've met a lot of nice people. But as you said i also have seen some (only a few) people i can't agree with. For example there was one "breeder" who asked me to use my big boy for stud service. After i told him, that there is no chance to get him for a stud service because our boy has very bad hips - that man told me "thats no problem, nobody can see it from the outside of the dog". I was shocked. Really unbelievable.

Yes, there were people which are not satisfied with the judgements - not only on sunday, on saturday too. Yes, of course some people were disappointed about the judgement decisions. And yes, some people can't take such decisions like sportsman. It's like everywhere in the world - some can loose, some can not. I think it's normal to be disappointed. So what - next show, next chance. And for me it's better to hear a realistic decision from the judge. However, after all i don't have heared somebody saying (or screaming) insults to your direction or outside the ring about you. I think it was after i was gone,on sunday i was gone around three p.m. (was a long way home to germany). I'm really sad about to hear, that it was such a bad experience for you. For me the whole weekend was a great experience, it was a very friendly, familiar atmosphere. One of the best weekends this year. I hope (but i'm not sure at the moment) that next time will be the same great experience for me - and maybe for you too?

If there is no marketing advantage then why have my name on these outcross dogs??

That meaning of that sentence i can't understand, sorry. Nobody calls the outcrosses LB's, everybody calls it OEB. The only outcrosses i know which are called LB are those which are registered with the LBA at the moment.

I am against the outcross proposal brought to the EKC.. I'm sorry but that position won't change

David, that's your decision - i don't want to change your decision, i like to understand it. I'm really sorry about that decision but i will respect that, of course. For me that decision is a big disappointment because (as i wrote yesterday) i think that split between the breeders and enthusiasts of LB is really not good for that fantastic breed. It brings a lot of unnecessary additional confusions. And from my view it would be much better for the breed to act in unity. But again - even if i can't understand it - i will respect that decision.

Mathias.

Life without Bulldog is stupid.

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Shelters not sheltering

Posted by DL on November 7, 2009, 10:59 am, in reply to "David..."
Creator

A percentage of Shelters here in the US also send their animals on to research laboratories for use in testing. Worse is the fact that some of these animals are rendered and are used to make pet food. I'm glad if these things don't go on in Europe but some of my views are formed by having worked fostering and rescuing siezed or abandoned dogs and I'm presently working on a project that takes care of 664 homeless cats on the island where I live in Florida.

http://blog.savingfurryfriends.com/action-alertbulletin/shelter-animals-sold-to-research-labs-is-your-local-shelter-allowing-this

http://www.animalpeoplenews.org/07/7/shelterkillingdrops7_07.html

http://blogs.uscannenberg.org/neontommy/2009/02/las-360tonayear-animal-renderi.html

http://www.californiachronicle.com/articles/view/84731

DL

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Thanks Mathias nm

Posted by DL on November 6, 2009, 5:20 pm, in reply to "David..."
Creator

nm

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Re: Mathias

Posted by unitedbulls on November 6, 2009, 5:44 am, in reply to "Mathias"
Unitedbulls

I hope it is not me because than we have a big problem......

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Re: Mathias

Posted by DL on November 6, 2009, 8:35 am, in reply to "Re: Mathias"
Creator

Not you.

DL

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Re: Here's Why

Posted by unitedbulls on November 5, 2009, 3:24 pm, in reply to "Re: Here's Why"
Unitedbulls

Great post i Agree with you.....so or send us better dogges for a normal price becuas shiping is like 800 dollars now or payed later for.... the puppie

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Re: Here's Why

Posted by Laure on November 5, 2009, 10:27 am, in reply to "Here's Why"
62.203.219.162

That makes sense.
I was thinking of opening the registry for some dogs that would be approved by you... not opening a gate for all and everyone (sorry if I wasn't clear on that point).
I was thinking of the nice female that made 1st place on sunday, in the 2-4 years old class (I think). She could be a nice prospect for outcrossing (new blood).

This is also why I keep thinking a breeding selection day, with pure LB's aswell, would be interesting. Pictures and videos are fine, but it's not like seeing the dog in flesh.

Laure

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Laure

Posted by DL on November 5, 2009, 1:17 pm, in reply to "Re: Here's Why"
Creator

I thought the female you mentioned was an exceptional dog and I have corresponded with her owner about the possibility of bringing her in.

DL

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Re: Excellent Post!!!

Posted by Freedombulls on November 5, 2009, 8:56 am, in reply to "Re: Excellent Post!!!"
85.144.149.229

Hi Laure

The problem with selecting dogs on show or on one day just by looking at them wont give you the total picture of the dog or his hidden defects.
It can be done but the owners need to bring all x-rays,pedegrees and teeth count but not sure if people will go to all of this trouble
If it was up to me i would aloud healthy screened out cross dogs only on a approve healthy 100%leavitt bulldogs and when i say healthy i mean all teeth and great x- rays and all other criteria we already have for our Leavitts.
Other wise the out cross is not an improvement for the Leavitt and we should not use them.

Gr Barry

Ps great post
Proud member of the L.B.A.E
http://www.leavittbulldogassociationeurope.com/

Link: Freedombulls

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Re: Excellent Post!!!

Posted by unitedbulls on November 5, 2009, 2:10 pm, in reply to "Re: Excellent Post!!!"
Unitedbulls

We need an outcross to aprove something better in our dogges but that is the most of the time 2 things to aprove not more...

I have now a litter LB X RB(both dogges are x-rayed) the reason that i did that is for a better body and all teeth's this female if she is correct will breed to 100% LB (4 generations)

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Re: Excellent Post!!!

Posted by Laure on November 5, 2009, 9:18 am, in reply to "Re: Excellent Post!!!"
62.203.219.162

"It can be done but the owners need to bring all x-rays,pedegrees and teeth count but not sure if people will go to all of this trouble "

That's the way I intend it to be!!!!

All this trouble? People want to breed dog? Sorry but there's a minimum of trouble to make it!!! Otherwise, you breed mix-breed and don't care about anything.

I don't see the trouble having a day dedicated to the breeding dog selection. If people want to get in, they would have to follow the rule.
Bringing x-ray and a vet certificate with the teeth count (all can be done the same day at the vet office!) doesn't take so much place in the car!

For the rest, I agree with you.

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Re: Excellent Post!!!

Posted by Freedombulls on November 5, 2009, 9:44 am, in reply to "Re: Excellent Post!!!"
85.144.149.229

All this trouble? People want to breed dog? Sorry but there's a minimum of trouble to make it!!! Otherwise, you breed mix-breed and don't care about anything.

Sorry you right should not be a trouble
Proud member of the L.B.A.E
http://www.leavittbulldogassociationeurope.com/

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Re: Excellent Post!!!

Posted by Jessica on November 5, 2009, 10:50 am, in reply to "Re: Excellent Post!!!"
82.3.67.87 | Message modified by user LeavittUK November 10, 2009, 11:03 am

We owned an incredible looking bulldog - he was EVERYTHING you would expect from a bulldog.
he would turn head and there was nothing physically he couldn't do....

He hit 3 years old and developed a crippling skin condition and within the space of a year reduced him to a wrek... This was not visible to us until he was 3 years and 2 months old!!!! - IF he was included in an out cross program for example the effect has the potential to be devastating to the breed particularly when the gene pool is so small already....

I do think out crossing would be good BUT it going to involve some SERIOUS health screening.

Another point to consider is that this male we had had perfect hips - His brother has just been put to sleep as he had such severe HD!!!! Things are not always what they seem and the bulldog strains are a minefield.

There is a breeder here in UK that is breeding some VERY smart looking bulldogs, that on the surface would look a perfect candidate for out crossing - They are even hip scoring some dogs etc BUT in the last year there has been 6 dogs from separate lines within this bulldog breed that has been diagnosed with 'Wobbler's syndrome' Every breeders worse nightmare! this particular breed will not ever be able to free from this devastating desiease it is finished in the eyes of anyone who cares about health - It is a painful and slow death for any dog which has this.... Again on the surface Superb looking dogs this is something that can be screened for i think?? but certainly something that is not visible to the eye or a health issue that has even been considered and one that is not even present with the Leavitt Bulldog as a breed - But if it was bought in from an out cross would be irreparable to the breed ....IF this is considered it has to be SO SO SO strict and some serious research and health testing would have to go into the outcrosses...

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Re: Excellent Post!!!

Posted by unitedbulls on November 5, 2009, 2:14 pm, in reply to "Re: Excellent Post!!!"
Unitedbulls

That is the reason you will breed 4 generation's and than maybe than it can be in the lba...

So you screen each generation and only breed with the best from that litter and yes the most of the genetic fault's are polygene but that is in all breeds not just the lb's

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